The Senedd met in the Chamber and by video-conference at 13:30 with the Llywydd (Elin Jones) in the Chair.

Statement by the Llywydd

Welcome to this Plenary session. Before we begin, I want to set out a few points. This meeting will be held in hybrid format, with some Members in the Senedd Chamber and others joining by video-conference. All Members participating in Senedd proceedings, wherever they may be, will be treated equally. A Plenary meeting held using video-conference, in accordance with the Standing Orders of the Welsh Parliament, constitutes Senedd proceedings for the purposes of the Government of Wales Act 2006. Some of the provisions of Standing Order 34 will apply for today's Plenary meeting.

1. Questions to the Minister for Finance and Local Government

The first item this afternoon is questions to the Minister for Finance and Local Government, and the first question is from Luke Fletcher.

Social Justice

Luke Fletcher AS: 1. What priorities does the Minister take into account when allocating funding to the social justice portfolio? OQ57577

Rebecca Evans AC: Our 2022-23 draft budget has provided over £400 million to the social justice portfolio up to 2024-25, including an additional £16.5 million in a range of targeted interventions to tackle inequality, to advance and strengthen equality and human rights, improve outcomes for people and contribute to a more equal Wales.

Luke Fletcher AS: Thank you, Minister, and of course, as a member of Plaid Cymru, it's a subject of pride to see a number of policies that Plaid Cymru and others have been campaigning for to tackle poverty being implemented in the Government in the wake of the co-operation agreement.

Luke Fletcher AS: Further to the First Minister's answer to me on the topic of tackling poverty and the role the education maintenance allowance can play, on 14 December, I noted that he estimated that the total cost of increasing EMA payments to £45, as well as increasing the threshold to make it easier for people to access, would cost roughly £10 million. Of course, I recognise the constraints on Welsh Government finance, but given the cost-of-living crisis and the fact we know that families with children are generally more likely to experience poverty, could the Minister give me an assurance that, when further funding is available, the Government seriously looks at expanding EMA and increasing the payments, even if it's through a phased approach? It was a great help to me when I was a kid and I know it would be an even greater help to families if it was expanded further.

Rebecca Evans AC: Thank you very much for raising this issue. We remain really proud in Wales of the work that we've done to retain the EMA, and also very proud of the work that we're doing jointly with Plaid Cymru in respect of many items in the co-operation agreement relating to poverty, not least our free-school-meal pledge, which will invest an additional £90 million up to 2024-25 to deliver this commitment in stages, as local authorities are able to expand their work in this particular area.
Withregard to EMA, obviously, we'll have to keep that matter under review. We've taken a different approach to our budget over the next three years, allocating essentially all available funding at this point in order to maximise funding and avoid the risk of underspends emerging in years, and so on. So, we have taken a slightly different approach this year in terms of giving ourselves less flexibility, but I know that Luke Fletcher makes a strong case in support of the EMA, which obviously we would want to keep under review.

Joel James MS: As the Minister will be aware, the equality and community cohesion budget will increase from £12.7 million in 2022-23 to £20.8 million in 2024-25. This equates to an increase of 64 per cent. From what I can understand, this represents the main increase in social justice expenditure. I'm in no way criticising the allocation of this money to the equality and community cohesion budget. Certainly, the economic impact of lockdown has exacerbated many of the inequalities that people already face and it is right that the disproportionate hardship that they are facing is recognised. But I'm interested in further understanding how such a large percentage increase can be sustained and how it can be factored into budgets beyond 2024-25, because I could see a real issue develop where organisations are geared up for receiving larger budgets only then to be pushed to the wall later on when they are subsequently starved of funding. With this in mind, could the Minister explain whether or not it is the intention of the Welsh Government to sustain or expand upon this level of funding post 2024-25? Thank you.

Rebecca Evans AC: Thank you for raising this. In many respects, what we're able to do beyond 2024-25 does depend on the funding the Welsh Government receives from the UK Government through any future comprehensive spending review. And it has been good that, in this spending period, we have had a three-year outlook for spending. We haven't had that since 2017, so it has enabled us and organisations and public services to look ahead and to plan much better for the years ahead. And I think what happens beyond 2024-25 will be subject to further discussions we'll have much closer to that date with the UK Government, but I would certainly hope that we would see favourable settlements beyond the current spending period.

The Cost-of-living Crisis

Llyr Gruffydd AC: 2. What assessment has the Welsh Government made of the impact of the cost-of-living crisis on local authority budgets? OQ57575

Rebecca Evans AC: Local authority and family budgets are feeling the effects of energy bills at an all-time high, mounting food costs and the highest inflation rates in a decade. The UK Government must take urgent action to tackle the cost-of-living crisis. The last UK Government budget was a missed opportunity.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Well, there is a cost-of-living tsunami breaking around us, isn't there, Minister? And once again, local authorities, among others of course, will be in the eye of the storm as they continue to deal on the one hand with the challenges of COVID, whilst also having to step in with additional support as people rely more on their services, because they can't afford to pay their rent, or heat their homes, or buy food. Now, the response to the COVID crisis, of course, was swift and very substantial, and local authorities in Wales were given additional funding from you to respond to those huge pressures. Do you accept that it's entirely possible that the same kind of response will be needed to the cost-of-living crisis, and, if you do, then can you give an assurance that your Government is willing to step into the breach with additional support to local authorities to meet the additional demand placed upon them if that is required during the next financial year?

Rebecca Evans AC: Thank you for the question. As I responded in my answer to your colleague Luke Fletcher, we have deployed virtually all of the available funding, so there won't be opportunities to reopen budgets in that sense in the next financial year, other than in the event of a UK Government budget, which would provide additional consequential funding to Wales. But, that said, we've been really mindful of the pressures on local authorities and the importance of the services that they deliver. And that's why the 2022-23 settlement, which I announced provisionally in December, is a good settlement for local government, providing a 9.4 per cent increase in funding on a like-for-like basis. And I do think that that puts local authorities on a good footing to be able to serve communities.
That said, I'm really aware of the current pressures facing local authorities, which is why, today, I've written to leaders, confirming discussions that have been had at officer and official level that there will be £70 million of capital to support local authorities with their overall capital programmes, including impacts on highways, for example. And in doing so, I've been very mindful of the increased cost of materials, for example, that local authorities are facing in respect of their capital projects. So, next year, I think local authorities do have a good settlement, which enables them to plan, and we're also seeking to do what we can to support individual families. I don't think that it's possible for us to step into the breach entirely, because it is the UK Government that has the fiscal firepower to deal with the cost-of-living crisis. But, that said, where we can act, we will act, and you've seen us do so recently with the £200 payment to eligible households in respect of their energy bills.

Peter Fox AS: Apologies in advance, as I'll follow the same theme as Llyr, if I may, but I'm conscious of your answer, Minister. As we know, the pandemic has had a substantial economic impact on families and resulted in more people needing access to financial advice and support. Councils are often the first port of call for people, and offer an important source of help and advice, and so increasing demand for support will have cost implications for councils, and pressures will no doubt rise as more help is required for individuals, communities and many other groups across the wider community. As I understand it, the Welsh Government's single advice fund is available to local authorities, but only if the funded services are to be planned and delivered on a regional basis. Therefore, Minister, I wondered what consideration has the Welsh Government given to relaxing the single advice service criteria to allow councils to more easily access funding so that they can expand their local support services in a far quicker and targeted way? And what else is the Welsh Government doing to help councils to provide additional support to those who need it? Thank you.

Rebecca Evans AC: Thank you for raising the issue of the single advice fund. The policy behind that fund and the operation of it lie in the portfolio of my colleague the Minister for Social Justice, but I will make a point of having a conversation with her about that. And I also have the opportunity regularly to meet with leaders of local government, as you'll recall from not too long ago, and I will take an opportunity in one of those upcoming meetings to explore their thoughts on the single advice fund and what it means for them in terms of their ability to support their local residents.

Questions Without Notice from Party Spokespeople

Questions now from the party spokespeople. The Welsh Conservative spokesperson, Sam Rowlands.

Sam Rowlands MS: Diolch, Llywydd, and good afternoon, Minister. Minister, how would you define the word 'reform'?

Rebecca Evans AC: Reform would be to make change, and, in the Welsh Government's context, obviously we don't want to make changes for the sake of changes, and we wouldn't want to make reforms that were regressive. So, within the context of council tax, for example, reform would be to create a more progressive system.

Sam Rowlands MS: Lovely, and thank you, Minister—you have well guessed my series of questions in terms of council tax reform; I'd hoped that was fairly obvious. As I'm sure all Members across the Chamber regularly do, I do take great interest in the co-operation agreement document that you are signed up to with Plaid Cymru, and in there, as you noted, when it comes to council tax reform, you have an ambition to reform one of the most regressive forms of taxation that disproportionately impacts poorer areas of Wales, and are looking to make it fairer.So, Minister, as you described this as one of the most regressive forms of taxation, how far will you go to reform it?

Rebecca Evans AC: Well, I made a statement on 7 December, providing our early thoughts in response to the work that we commissioned over the period of the last Senedd, which was published in our summary of findings. That pulled together various potential models for the future, as investigated by Bangor University, Cardiff University, the Institute for Fiscal Studies and others who have been doing work for us. So, our next steps, as set out in that statement, would be to look to a number of streams of work. One would be to ask the Valuation Office Agency to update the valuations here in Wales. That hasn't happened for some time; actually, it's existed in its current form—the council tax system has existed in its current form—since 1993, so we've got a lot of catching up to do in terms of recognising the value of properties. And that's a good start. That will help us then consider future options—for example, changing the number of bands, adding bands at the top and bottom of the system to try and make the system fairer. And, also, it will be the intention to review the council tax reduction scheme. So, at the moment, we're able to support over 200,000 families, households, across Wales in respect of council tax bills. So, we'll be reviewing that to make sure that the new system is coherent with whatever comes next after the valuation. Also, we'll be reviewing the discounts, disregards, exemptions and premiums to ensure that they're also relevant to today's policy ambitions.

Sam Rowlands MS: Thank you, Minister. I suppose the risk that I'm pointing toward is that we talk about reform, and talk, to my mind, to a more wholesale change, and some of the things you mentioned there perhaps aren't reform but are merely tweaks or tinkering around the edges. And simply a revaluation, with a couple of extra bands added, potentially, to council tax, isn't real reform. And, of course, it's important to note that the last time the Welsh Government undertook a revaluation in Wales, one in three households saw a hike in the council tax that they were paying. And I suppose it's also a risk that, without a real desire to see reform, we could be talking about this again in another five, 10 years' time, talking about the regressive nature of council tax but no real change being made to it, just merely tweaks here and there. So, Minister, are you able to assure us today that you have a real appetite to see changes in this area and to see true reform, rather than just tweaking things around the edges?

Rebecca Evans AC: So, there were a few things in that question. I don't think a revaluation is tweaking around the edges. You described that, even in the last revaluation, a third of properties saw an increase in their bills. That's pretty dramatic, and there would probably be a corresponding number who saw a decrease in their bills, and some then who saw the system stay the same for them. So, there'll be lots of questions for us to consider even in that context. What kind of transitional support, if any, do we put in for those households? What is the impact on councils themselves in terms of being able to raise revenue? Will we need to put transitional things in place for them? So, that's another big question.But, overall, all of this doesn't close the door on more fundamental reform in future. So, even a revaluation, the new bands and so on, will take almost the entirety of this Senedd term. That's partly because of the rules that sitbehind the VOA, when changes can be made, and when they can be implemented and so on. So, this is a long-term piece of work, but it doesn't shut the door on more fundamental reform in the future, such as a land value tax. We will go on continuing to explore something like that. We could have rolling revaluations. When we think about the data that the Welsh Revenue Authorityis constantly getting in terms of house prices, we could have rolling revaluations, which might make things fairer and more up to date in future. So, alongside the revaluation, we are considering additional kinds of reforms for the future. I think that this should be a collaborative piece of work, and I'd be more than happy to have discussions with colleagues across the Seneddin terms of hearing ideas for making council tax fairer.

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Llyr Gruffydd.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Diolch, Llywydd. Minister, the blatant denial of funding to Wales by the Westminster Government has probably gone to another level, hasn't it, this week. Maybe we shouldn't be surprised, because we already know that the UK Government is denying Wales our £5 billion share of HS2 funding—money, by the way, that they've given to Scotland and they've given to Northern Ireland. Westminster is also denying us the ability to utilise our natural resources to create revenue through the devolution of the Crown Estate, something, again, that they've given to another part of the United Kingdom. But we learnt, of course, this week that despite an explicit promise by the Prime Minister that Wales wouldn't be a penny worse off from leaving the EU, Westminster is pocketing £1 billion-worth of money that should be coming to Wales. So, do you agree with me, Minister, that the more the Westminster Government breaks its promises, the more it breaks up the United Kingdom?

Rebecca Evans AC: Yes, I do. I agree fully with that. I think that every time the UK Government makes a promise to Wales and to the people of Wales that it doesn't keep, it does risk the break-up of the United Kingdom. The United Kingdom has to be a group of nations where we have mutual respect, and where we treat each other with equality, and we don't have that at the moment. That's not to say that the UK Government can't today make changes in that respect and change its approach to the United Kingdom. I really don't think that down the end of the M4 the UK Government really hears the mood music in Wales and hears how angry and fed up people are in Wales with the UK Government. But, of course, there'll be opportunities for them to hear that loud and clear in the months ahead.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: And, of course, not only are they denying us the funding that's rightfully ours, but they're also denying us the fiscal levers that would really help make a difference to people's lives here in Wales, from intentionally restricting what fiscal powers we have to denying us powers over other key levers like corporation tax, value added tax and air passenger duty. As you said earlier in a previous answer, we just don't have the fiscal firepower. Again, I suppose we shouldn't be surprised, because it's no secret that this Tory Westminster Government is intent not only on undermining devolution, but on actually undoing devolution, and taking back powers to Westminster. So, do you share my concerns that the Westminster Government's intention to review the Wales Act 2014 is an ominous sign that the Tories are coming after devolution, and that it isn't just our money that they'll take off us, but our powers as well?

Rebecca Evans AC: There's so much to respond to there. I completely share your concerns about the lack of flexibilities that the Welsh Government has. I know that this has been something that has actually received agreement across the Senedd in the past, in terms of the need for the Welsh Government to have greater flexibility at year end to have a full financial year to spend money that is often presented to us very late on in the financial year. Our ability to borrow more in the aggregate and more on an annual basis would be useful in terms of managing our funding as well. So, there's a whole range of flexibilities that we want to see there. There's a whole range of tax powers that we would want to see come to Wales—you mentioned air passenger duty. The huge trouble that we're having even really getting proper conversation now with the UK Government in respect of the vacant land tax is another example of where things just aren't satisfactory at the moment. And so the recent announcements in terms of the UK Government's approach to the Welsh Government and Welsh powers are of concern, and obviously we will want to be engaging with this fully. Again, this is an area where those of us who share views will want to work collaboratively.

Road Maintenance

Laura Anne Jones AC: 3. What consideration did the Minister give to local authorities' responsibilities for road maintenance when setting the budget for the climate change portfolio? OQ57574

Rebecca Evans AC: We recognise the importance of maintaining our road network, which represents a £17 billion asset. Within the climate change portfolio, we are investing £0.5 billion to maintain a safe and reliable network. Alongside this, the local government settlement provides almost £16 billion to support their responsibilities in these and other areas.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Thank you. Rural areas like my colleague Peter Fox's constituency of Monmouth—and I'd just like to declare an interest as a Monmouthshire county councillor still—tend to have very large road networks that need a lot of upkeep, yet we see the Welsh Government has allocated no additional funds through the resilient roads grant. If the Welsh Government are going to persist with the agenda of building no more roads, then additional funding should be allocated to maintain the current roads and clear the maintenance backlog. We all want a cleaner, greener Wales, but letting our roads fall into disrepair is not the way to achieve it. The Asphalt Industry Alliance annual local authority road maintenance survey found that Welsh highway authorities would need an additional £36.3 million per local authority to repair roads across the counties. It would take 10 years for all roads to be repaired. So, Minister, what steps are being taken to make sure our roads are fit for purpose for a twenty-first century Wales and why hasn't any extra money been allocated to fix our dire roads in Wales?

Rebecca Evans AC: The Member would have heard me say in response to a previous question that today I have written to leaders of local authorities confirming an additional £70 million of funding for this financial year, and that was in part in response to the discussions that I've had in relation to their concerns about road maintenance. I do recognise the important of road maintenance, and I'm often amazed when I hear UK Government Ministers suggest that Wales is overfunded. I even hear it within this Chamber in respect of the needs-based formula that provides Wales with funding. One of the reasons why we do have additional funding here in Wales is because of our dispersed settlement pattern. I was just reminded when Laura Anne Jones was speaking about the fact that there are 6.7 miles of road for every 1,000 people in Wales and 3.4 miles in England. So, there are almost twice as many roads for us to maintain per head of population here in Wales than in England. And obviously, our dispersed population means higher costs in respect of education and other services. So, I just wanted to give that as an example as to why the funding formula works as it does. I think that communities across Wales benefit as a result of what was agreed by Mark Drakeford when he was in this post.

Question 4, Carolyn Thomas.

Carolyn Thomas AS: Thank you. Sorry, I was hoping to come in as a supplementary on Laura Jones's question, so I'm just trying to find my right place. Thank you very much. I'm very pleased to hear of the extra capital funding that's coming forward this year for highway maintenance—

You need to ask—

Carolyn Thomas AS: Sorry, can I declare that I'm a Flintshire county councillor?Thank you.

Yes, you can declare, and now you can ask the question that you've tabled as question 4, even though you tried to be quick there and get in your supplementary on question 3 as well. We'll carry on and ask question 4, please.

Carolyn Thomas AS: Okay. Thank you very much.

Local Authorities in North Wales

Carolyn Thomas AS: 4. How does the Welsh Government ensure fair funding for local authorities across north Wales? OQ57558

Rebecca Evans AC: I ensure fair funding for all local authorities in Wales by prioritising local government and health services in budget decisions and through a transparent, equitable and jointly produced distribution formula with our local government partners.

Carolyn Thomas AS: Thank you for that answer, Minister. It's often raised with me that the funding formula for local authorities needs addressing. I think it's been raised here quite a few times as well. For the last few years, the debate has gone round and round in circles, with council leaders writing to Welsh Government, Welsh Government then saying the Welsh Local Government Association need to agree as a collective, and then they have different views because there are huge winners and losers. But, councils are still feeling the pain of austerity, and although this year was a good settlement, the variance per capita and per council can be hugely significant, with the gap between the highest and lowest paid council widening year upon year. The cumulative impact can mean the baseline for some remains low each year, so the difference between two neighbouring councils can be £650 per resident and £50 million or more per annum. For example, a £20 million highways maintenance grant through the formula can equate to £1.2 million for one authority and £850,000 for another. If this continues each year then the cumulative impact continues to grow as well, so one will do well while the other one struggles. So, could the distribution committee that sits below the finance committee investigate the funding formula going forward, or having a funding floor?

Rebecca Evans AC: I thank Carolyn Thomas for raising that point. I think it's worth reminding ourselves why the funding floor was originally devised. It was always, really, intended to be a temporary measure to mitigate the impact of unmanageable negative changes in authority funding in individual years and not to reduce the range of allocation between authorities. We have worked hard to improve the amount of funding provided directly to local authorities. As I mentioned earlier, we've done so by allocating upfront, at the provisional stage, to give local authorities the potential to plan across the full three years.
Obviously, in preparing the final settlement, I'll have to give very good consideration to the consultation process. At the moment, it is a provisional settlement and the consultation closes on 8 February, so I would have to consider the responses to that. If authorities do collectively request a funding floor this year, then, obviously, it would have to be a redistributed floor, so that's where funding would come from other authorities above the chosen floor. I've got the finance sub-group meeting on 9 February, and I'll certainly have those discussions with council leaders again to explore whether they want to review the funding formula. That's something that we've said that we are open to doing, but it would have to come as a request from local government.
Of course, every local authority will have different ideas as to how things should work and which things should be given greater weight. You know, we've got deprivation and sparsity needing to be taken into account in future, and, obviously, we'd want to keep those very much in there. But I will have that discussion again with colleagues on 9 February to explore their views. And, Llywydd, Carolyn Thomas never misses an opportunity to raise road maintenance with me.

Mark Isherwood AC: Ever since the current Welsh local government formula was introduced over 20 years ago, Flintshire has received one of the lowest settlements in Wales. Speaking here two years ago, I pointed out that four of the five bottom local authorities in terms of funding increases were again the same authorities in north Wales, including Flintshire. Ipointed out then that council tax payers in Flintshire faced an 8.1 per cent council tax increase, despite Flintshire councillors having launched a campaign, Back the Ask, highlighting cross-party frustration about the funding they received from the Welsh Government, which led to a large delegation of cross-party councillors coming here to lobby Welsh Government Ministers, calling for the funding formula to be reviewed.
Following your announcement of the provisional settlement for 2022-23 in December, Flintshire's Labour leader criticised the formula used to calculate how much money it receives to provide services as it struggled to balance its books. It's receiving a 9.2 per cent increase, but that still places the county third from bottom out of 22 Welsh local authorities in terms of the amount it receives per person in the area, leaving the council's reserves at one of the lowest levels in Wales and without the cushion other local authorities have. So, when will you stop hiding behind the Welsh Local Government Association—a fairer formula will mean losers as well as winners, and turkeys don't vote for Christmas—and recognise that the 22-year-old funding formula has reached its sell-by date and needs independent review desperately?

Rebecca Evans AC: I would remind Mark Isherwood that the average increase across Wales for the local government settlement next year is 9.4 per cent and Flintshire has a 9.2 per cent increase, so it's not very far off the average.

Spending on Legislation

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: 5. How does the Minister monitor the value for money and effectiveness of Welsh Government spending on legislation? OQ57544

Rebecca Evans AC: The cost of legislation is met from within the allocations of portfolio budgets, and Ministers take costs into account when prioritising spend for a financial year. When a Minister introduces a Bill, our planned approach for monitoring, reviewing and evaluating the policy is set out in the regulatory impact assessment.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Thank you. As the Minister will be aware, I am totally opposed to bringing in unnecessary legislation—the Trade Union (Wales) Act 2017 and the Children (Abolition of Defence of Reasonable Punishment) (Wales) Act 2020 to name but two. On the latter, the explanatory memorandum stated that the preferred option to legislate to remove the defence of reasonable punishment in Wales would cost a total to our taxpayers of between £6 million and £8 million. So far, the Welsh Government has spent £1,650,098. Section 1 of this Act comes into force in March. Now, since the legislation received Royal Assent, our nation has been hit by COVID-19. The impact alone on children's mental health has been severe, and the Children's Commissioner for Wales has had to speak up loudly about the fact that there are no suitable places for young people in mental health crisis. So, we do have to prioritise support for those children, who, through no fault of their own, are suffering because of the response to the pandemic. Given these concerns that there are no dedicated mental health crisis centres in Wales for young people, and the fact that you've spent £1.6 million up to now—clearly there is more money allocated for the Bill I mentioned—would you be willing to co-operate with the Deputy Minister for Social Services to review the effectiveness of the spend on abolition of defence of reasonable punishment and maybe be quite radical and look to divert some of that funding to front-line mental health services for young people? Diolch.

Rebecca Evans AC: Well, I'm not going to make any apology for investing in removing the defence of reasonable punishment and the work that needs to sit alongside that, and I know that—. It seems that Janet Finch-Saunders and I have different views on what is necessary legislation and what isn't, but I will say, in respect of the budget for the period ahead, we have allocated an additional £100 million in respect of mental health, and some of that will be very much looking to bolster our whole-school approach to ensure that children and young people do get the support they need at the earliest point. So, mental health is a major priority for this Government, and you will see it reflected in the budget that we published before Christmas.

Rhys ab Owen AS: Minister, I don't think you need to take any lectures from the Tory party about wasting money; they are experts at doing so. But, Minister, as a young legislature, with around 50 Acts on the statute book, the Senedd is in a prime position to ensure that all its Acts are efficient, fit for purpose, and are achieving their proposed purpose. Can the Minister provide information about any recent post-implementation reviews of legislation, and whether the costs and savings predicted for those Acts were in fact accurate? Diolch yn fawr.

Rebecca Evans AC: Yes. So, those reviews will be the responsibility of each portfolio Minister, but I have some within my portfolio that will be relevant here. So, for example, I've just announced a review of the landfill disposals tax. That's set out in legislation, that there should be a review within five years of the implementation of the Act, so we are putting together, at the moment, the commission for that piece of work. I've liaised with the Chair of the Finance Committee in terms of the scope of that work, and we would be looking to do that over the period ahead, with a view to publication in the autumn of 2023. So, that is an example of where it's set out in legislation that we must undertake these reviews, and I intend to do so.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: The Senedd should be really interested in the matter of the quantum and the effective targeting of Welsh Government resources on legislation, because we note the unprecedented increase in the use of the legislative consent process, where Welsh Government resources are redirected towards Westminster in addition to that here in Wales; the additional resource needed to respond to legislation resulting from leaving the European Union, which continues; and the additional resource needed to respond to emergency legislation in response to the coronavirus; as well as, I have to say, what may be regarded as routine business of 'made in Wales' legislation in the programme for government and the co-operation agreement and routine regulations. So, we wonder, Minister: do you think there's any useful comparative analysis to be made between the resources put to legislation, drafting and policy in Westminster, or indeed Scotland or Northern Ireland, compared to that allocated here in Wales? And could the Minister tell us whether she feels there is a benefit to greater and more granulated analysis of how and where legislative resource is allocated by Welsh Government? And perhaps she, and other Ministers, and the Counsel General, could assist us in that analysis.

Rebecca Evans AC: That's an interesting question. It's one that I will pursue with colleagues. We have a board of Ministers who have responsibility for legislation within their portfolios who get together very frequently to discuss the progress of legislation, and I think that might be a useful forum in which to have some of those discussions. So, it's an interesting proposition and I'll certainly give it some further thought and discussion with colleagues.

A Tourism Levy

Sarah Murphy AS: 6. Will the Minister provide an update on plans to enable local authorities to raise a tourism levy? OQ57569

Rebecca Evans AC: Yes. Policy development has commenced and discussions are under way with local authorities. A consultation will take place in autumn this year, enabling all views to be considered on the operation of a visitor levy.

Sarah Murphy AS: Thank you, Minister. I could understand if you were getting a little fed up with being asked about a potential tourism levy, especially as the Welsh Government, as you said, is planning to do a consultation starting this autumn. However, the issue continues to be politicised and used to spread misinformation in my community of Bridgend and Porthcawl. I will support my constituents in whatever they decide when they get to voice their views on a potential levy, but I want the people in my community to be able to make a decision based on facts and fairness. The pandemic has identified an opportunity to strengthen local tourist economies, such as Porthcawl in my constituency, yet we cannot ignore the fact that a decade or more now of Westminster austerity has seen closures of public toilets, museums and local amenities that we need to welcome tourists without putting extra pressure on the residents and businesses. Does the Minister agree with me that a tourist levy could provide an opportunity for the community to invest in tourist attractions and public facilities without the burden falling on the residents to pick up the bill?

Rebecca Evans AC: Yes, definitely. So, for those authorities that do decide that they would like to raise a visitor levy, it will obviously provide them with additional revenue for their communities to invest in the conditions that make tourism a success, and I think that a proportionate and fair contribution from visitors will support a more sustainable approach to tourism that we have here in Wales. And of course, tourists do use infrastructure, they use services and so on, so I think that making a contribution to the maintenance and the expansion of those is a fair thing to do. And actually, what we're promoting isn't even radical; it's completely normal in many parts of the world, and, actually, in Europe, not having any tourism levies or visitor levies across the United Kingdom actually makes us outliers on this agenda. We're very much, as the UK, behind the curve on this, but Wales is absolutely keen on embracing the opportunities that lie here.
I think the fact that you've referred to consultation is really important. So, we've done some initial engagement with local authorities, but it's the intention to really engage widely now, as we get to the autumn of this year, to ensure that we do hear the voices from the tourism sector, in particular accommodation and so on, so that we can ensure that what we offer local authorities as a tool is one that is useful and proportionate.

Tom Giffard AS: Diolch, Llywydd, and I'll want tostart by reminding Members of my interest as a sitting councillor at Bridgend County Borough Council.But I have to say it's surprising for me to see both the Minister, who represents the constituency of Gower, and Sarah Murphy, who tabled this question, whose constituency covers Porthcawl, both advocating for a tourism tax today. Being a regional Member for South Wales West, representing both those communities, I'm only too aware of the negative impact that a tax like that would have on visitors to communities like Porthcawl, Mumbles and Gower. Businesses in those areas don't support it and neither do local residents. But one of the main arguments I've heard from Welsh Government Ministers and other proponents of a tourism tax is that any money raised should be then protected to boost tourism spending in their local areas, and I note, from an answer to a written question in December from my colleague Janet Finch-Saunders, you, Minister, said that, quote:
'Funds raised by the levy will be invested back into the local services and provisions which make tourism a success in Wales.'
End quote. But, at present, we haven't seen anything that would prevent councils from reducing existing tourism budgets after introducing a tourism tax either, so what mechanisms are you currently considering to ensure that councils do not replace the income generated by a tourism tax with decreased existing council spending on tourism?

Rebecca Evans AC: I think the beginning of the question there was set on a premise that the evidence just doesn't support. So, there's no evidence to support that tourism levies are a major barrier to tourism. Why would most of northern Europe be having tourism levies if they were such a detriment? Why would some of the biggest tourist hotspots in the world be having tourism levies if they were not successful in terms of maintaining sustainable tourism in those areas?
So, the very detailed question you ask is, quite rightly, one that will follow from the consultation. So, there's a lot that is yet to be determined in terms of precisely what will happen to the funding that is raised and precisely which types of accommodation are in scope and so on. So, at the moment, we're setting out our broad plans, and the consultation will be an opportunity to drill down a bit deeper into how we design a potential levy in future. So, there will be plenty of opportunities for colleagues across the Senedd to engage with the consultation process, as there will be for tourism businesses in all of the communities that you referred to.

Supporting Businesses

Vikki Howells AC: 7. What consideration did the Minister give to supporting businesses to deal with the impact of COVID-19 when allocating funding to the economy portfolio? OQ57550

Rebecca Evans AC: Since the start of the pandemic, we've used every lever at our disposal to support Welsh businesses, providing more than £2.8 billion and safeguarding over 160,000 Welsh jobs. We will continue to support the sectors most directly impacted, including through our £116 million retail, leisure and hospitality rates relief scheme.

Vikki Howells AC: Thank you, Minister. Many businesses in Cynon Valley benefitted from the COVID recovery fund to help them make adaptations to enable social distancing and carry out other interventions in response to coronavirus—businesses like Cheryl's Fruit and Veg in Abercynon, Aberdare market cafe, Temple Bar in Aberaman and Penaluna's Famous Fish and Chips in Hirwaun. I want to thank Welsh Government and Rhondda Cynon Taf County Borough Council for funding and administering the scheme respectively. But could you outline how you're building similar support into the budget so that businesses can not only survive, but also thrive as we go forward?

Rebecca Evans AC: Thank you very much for that, and also for giving me the chance, like you, to echo our thanks to RCT and other councils across Wales who worked so hard to get that funding into the bank accounts of businesses as swiftly and as smoothly as possible. I think that they've done incredible work, especially alongside all the other things that we're asking them to do in terms of self-isolation support payments and all the work we're asking them to do of in respect of the £200 payment to households experiencing fuel poverty and so on. So, they've done an absolutely incredible job and I'm glad that we have this chance this afternoon to say 'thank you' for that.
In terms of the budget, I think that the work that we're doing to ensure that retail, hospitality and leisure businesses will have a 50 per cent rate relief next year is important. It's also worth putting on record that we've invested £20 million more in that than we received in consequential funding from the UK Government. That's because of the nature of our business tax base here in Wales, but we've been pleased to do that to ensure that no-one misses out. And we're also looking to see what we can do to invest in communities through our Transforming Towns programme. So, that will be providing £136 million to further support the economic and social recovery of town centres across Wales, and I think that will be a really important intervention. I know there are some great examples in Vikki Howells's constituency, including funding towards the refurbishment of the Mountain Ash town hall building, which is really important, as is the redevelopment of the former Barclays bank in Mountain Ash as well. So, lots of good examples particularly, I think, in Vikki Howells's constituency, and I know she's a strong advocate for businesses in her area.

Isle of Anglesey County Council

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: 8. Will the Minister make a statement on the local government settlement for Isle of Anglesey County Council for 2022-23? OQ57554

Rebecca Evans AC: Yes. For 2022-23, the Isle of Anglesey will receive a 9.2 per cent increase in its core settlement allocations. This is the authority's largest increase since the start of devolution. In addition, the authority will receive its share of £1.1 billion from specific revenue grants.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Thank you for that response. The first thing I'll say is how pleased I am that the budgetary situation of the Isle of Anglesey County Council has settled so well under Plaid Cymru leadership in recent years, and the council tax is among the lowest in Wales. One area of risk that is a concern is teachers' salary. Now, in the past, the Government has assisted councils with those costs, but, as I understand it, the Government is now passing that risk on to local authorities, and that's among a whole host of other responsibilities that are being transferred in the settlement—homelessness; the real living wage for carers also. But this risk around teachers' salaries is a very real one. Can we have an assurance that the Government will be willing to step in to provide financial support when the final teachers' settlement is decided, if that is a threat to the other crucial services provided by councils?

Rebecca Evans AC: Well, Welsh Government has been pleased, in recent years, to be able to provide additional funding to local government in respect of the pressures relating to teachers' pay, but actually, that way of working hasn't been a satisfactory one. And it does mean that, when you look at—. Well, what I've said a couple of times in the course of questions today is that we've allocated all of the funding available to us. So, it's not going to be possible for us to go back and find additional funding in relation to teachers' pay for next year. And I've been really, really clear on that point and other points in my letter to local government leaders that the good funding settlement of 9.4 per cent across Wales will need, now, to include teachers' pay. So, we won't be able to have the same discussions in this coming year as we've had in the last couple of years, because there won't be the funding available. And I think that the good settlement that we provided has been warmly welcomed, and we've been very upfront, now, with local authorities as to what we expect them to be able to deliver as a result.

Finally, question 9, Natasha Asghar.

Transport Infrastructure

Natasha Asghar AS: 9. What consideration was given to improving transport infrastructure when setting the budget for the climate change portfolio? OQ57548

Rebecca Evans AC: As part of the significant transport investments we are making, we have provided £1.6 billion of capital to deliver improvements in transport infrastructure over the next three years. Our new Wales infrastructure investment strategy also reflects our approach to transport improvements across Wales, set out in 'Llwybr Newydd'.

Natasha Asghar AS: Thanks, Minister. In June last year, the Deputy Minister for Climate Change announced a freeze on all new road building projects in Wales. As a result, the Llanbedr bypass project was cancelled after nearly £1.7 million had already been spent on it. I tabled a written question in November, asking how much money had been spent on road projects that had been halted subject to the review. In the reply I received, the Deputy Minister said that he could not answer until the roads review panel, set up in September, made its initial report, which was due within three months of its appointment. Last week, in a reply to a question from my colleague from Plaid Cymru, Rhun ap Iorwerth, the Deputy Minister said, and I quote:
'We're hoping that the roads review panel's report will come out in the summer'.
So, can I ask, Minister, as you are responsible for managing the resources of the Welsh Government, what discussions have you had with the Deputy Minister on the potential waste of money on road projects that have now been cancelled?

Rebecca Evans AC: We haven't cancelled projects; we're pausing projects so that they can be reviewed. And I think it's only right that the roads review panel is allowed to do its work. I mean, we clearly still recognise the importance of transport in our budget, because over the next three years, we are investing close to £1.4 billion and that includes £0.75 billion for rail and bus provision, including the delivery of the next stages of the south Wales metro. So, we are seeing a shift towards public transport, and I don't think that that's a bad thing when we recognise the importance of addressing the nature and climate emergencies ahead of us.
But, as you say, the Deputy Minister for Climate Change is responsible for this particular programme, and I know that he'll have more to say on the work of the roads review panel in due course when it does come forward with its report.

Thank you, Minister.

2. Questions to the Minister for Rural Affairs and North Wales, and Trefnydd

The next item, therefore, is questions to the Minister for Rural Affairs and North Wales, and Trefnydd, and the first question is from Gareth Davies.

Bee Health

Gareth Davies AS: 1. What discussions has the Minister had with the Minister for Climate Change on the impact of pesticides on bee health? OQ57566

Lesley Griffiths AC: The Welsh Government policy is to reduce to the lowest possible level the effect of pesticide use on people, the environment and wildlife, including bees, whilst ensuring that pests, diseases and weeds are effectively controlled.

Gareth Davies AS: I appreciate that answer, Minister. The impact that pesticides are having upon our pollinators is a very real concern for many of my constituents. Fruit farming plays a big role for many in the Vale of Clwyd, including the Denbigh plum, which I often mention, and without bees and other pollinators, there would be no fruit orchards. While many, including the local authorities—and can I declare an interest as a current member of Denbighshire County Council—are taking steps to make the area bee friendly, no amount of wild flowers will help if the bees are being killed off by chemicals. So, Minister, it's not just farmers who use pesticides, many home owners do also. In addition to the actions you've already outlined, will you commit your Government to raising awareness of the issue, and will you publicise alternatives to chemical pesticides in order to ensure that bees and orchards flourish in the Vale of Clwyd and across Wales?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. I think you raise a very important point and, as a Government, we are committed to driving the uptake of our integrated pest management to reduce the use of chemical pesticides. So, what we are promoting is nature-based, low-toxicity solutions and precision technologies, and they alone will have the potential to enhance biodiversity, and IPM will also be a very important part of the sustainable farming scheme. But, as you say, it's not just farmers, of course, who use chemicals in the way you refer, and we do work with local authorities, and other land managers and individuals, who use pesticides to adopt techniques and technologies that provide alternative means of pest, disease and weed control.

Vascular Services

Siân Gwenllian AC: 2. What discussions has the Minister had with the Minister for Health and Social Services about vascular services for patients from Arfon and all parts of north Wales since the reconfiguration of these services? OQ57541

Lesley Griffiths AC: I have discussed vascular services in north Wales with the Minister for Health and Social Services. I am aware of the reorganisation of vascular services, the ongoing concerns and the work Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board is doing to address recommendations made by the Royal College of Surgeons.

Siân Gwenllian AC: There is increasing evidence that reconfiguration of the vascular services has led to a significant deterioration in provision for people in north Wales. It would have made sense to locate the new hub in Ysbyty Gwynedd in Bangor—that's what a sensible reorganisation would have been, namely building on the unit of excellent quality that was there. As you said, there is another review in the pipeline, but this is being undertaken by the same body that had recommended the erroneous reorganisation model in the first place, so that doesn't inspire much confidence. Will you, as the Minister who represents north Wales, ask the health Minister to intervene directly in the situation and undertake a ministerial inquiry that will bring clear recommendations before us in order to ease the increasing concerns of my constituents in Arfon?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Well, we are, of course, awaiting part two of the Royal College of Surgeons' review. I understand it's been recently received in a draft form by the health board, and we are expecting it to be published imminently. I think it's good to wait for that review. I think the Minister for Health and Social Services has made it very clear she expects improvements to be made and for this service, really, to live up to expectations, that it will be a flagship service within Wales. So, I think it would be good to await the report and I know the Minister is obviously monitoring the situation very closely.

Sam Rowlands MS: Thanks to the Member for submitting this important question today, and, as we know, this issue was also raised with the First Minister yesterday as part of the First Minister's questions, and has some cross-party concern in the Chamber. In his response yesterday, the First Minister outlined that he wouldn't be supporting a public inquiry, because of the length of time that might take, and he would consider that not to be to the best benefit of patients in north Wales, which may be a fair comment. But, in light of this, Minister, and in your role as Minister for north Wales, and hearing what you just mentioned in terms of awaiting the outcomes of further work, would you consider taking some urgent action to see this issue resolved and for patients in north Wales to have the best treatment possible? Is there anything you can do urgently to get this issue sorted?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Well, as I said in my earlier answer to Siân Gwenllian, I think we are expecting the report, the second part of the review, to be published imminently, and by 'imminently', I mean maybe this week even. So, I do think it's right for the Minister for Health and Social Services to wait for that report to come forward, and then, clearly, in my role as Minister for north Wales, I could seek an urgent meeting with her around the recommendations that are coming from the Royal College of Surgeons.

Questions Without Notice from Party Spokespeople

Questions now from the party spokespeople. Welsh Conservative spokesperson, Darren Millar.

Darren Millar AC: In your capacity as Minister for north Wales, can you tell us why north Wales is getting so much less investment in its metro when compared with south Wales?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Well, as you know, I think we're doing very well now with our scoping of the north Wales metro, and I think we are seeing significant funding coming into the metro. I had a meeting with the Deputy Minister for Climate Change around it, and I think it will benefit the region very well. Obviously, the south Wales metro is well ahead of the north Wales metro, but if further funding is required as we go through each stage, I know the Deputy Minister is currently looking at funding options and what needs to be done next to bring the metro forward.

Darren Millar AC: Minister, many people in north Wales welcomed news that a metro was going to be built. Of course, it was in your 2016 manifesto, it's now 2022, and there's still not a lot of progress been made in north Wales. Seven hundred and fifty million pounds has been earmarked for south Wales, versus just £50 million in the north. Now, as Minister for north Wales, people in the region will be looking to you to be the voice of north Wales around that Cabinet table, making sure that you lever at least proportionate resources into the region versus those that are spent elsewhere in Wales. Can you tell us how that mechanism works and what assurances you have from your Cabinet colleagues that there is proportionate investment in north Wales and that they are tackling the issues and challenges that we have in north Wales across our public services?

Lesley Griffiths AC: So, you're quite right, I make sure that we get our fair proportion of funding in north Wales. I have to be very careful, because obviously I'm the Member of the Senedd for Wrexham, and, obviously, Wrexham is a very important part of the north Wales metro. As I say, the south Wales metro plans are far ahead. You were right, it was in the 2016—. I remember we committed to bringing forward plans for a north Wales metro in the first 100 days of the 2016 Government, which we did.
You will be aware that there's been a pandemic that has taken, obviously, a huge amount of resources, and we're not as far as we would have hoped to have been with the north Wales metro, but it is good to see the plans now and the workings to make sure that the connectivity from north Wales into the north-west of England, which is so important for our region, is there. But, as I say, the Minister is currently looking at funding options and which areas will now need a focus to ensure the metro comes forward.

Darren Millar AC: Six years, sluggish progress and we need to get it back on track, if you'll excuse the pun. One of the other things that has been failing for a long time in north Wales now, of course, is mental health services. Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board was put into special measures because of failings in its mental health services back in 2015. Seven years on and mental health services are still subject to special measures, and everybody recognises that they need to be improved significantly. Why is it that it takes the Welsh Government so much longer to get to grips with and to deal with problems in north Wales's public services, such as mental health services, and it takes you less time to resolve problems that are elsewhere in Wales? Isn't this more evidence that north Wales is a secondary issue, a bit of a blind spot for most of the people in your Cabinet? I'm not saying it's necessarily you, because you're a representative for north Wales, but doesn't it suggest to you that there's clear evidence that north Wales just isn't getting sufficient focus from this Welsh Government?

Lesley Griffiths AC: No, I think that's something that you like to get out there that that's the case. It really isn't—

Darren Millar AC: Why is it seven years, seven years to resolve?

Lesley Griffiths AC: I really don't think north Wales is second for any of my Cabinet colleagues. Obviously, I am there to ensure that doesn't happen, but I sit round the Cabinet table, you don't, and I can assure you it's not a blind spot at all.

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Mabon ap Gwynfor.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: Thank you very much, Llywydd. May I take this opportunity to thank Cefin Campbell for his work in this role, and to wish him well in his new role?
I want to ask the Minister, please—. There's been a great deal of coverage of the cost-of-living crisis facing so many people today. It's worth bearing in mind that the increase in energy and fuel costs also has an impact on our agricultural sector, which, in turn, is reflected in the market. In a survey by Farmers Weekly, 57 per cent of farmers noted that they expected to see a substantial increase in their costs over the next 12 months. The Farmers Union of Wales has said that increasing prices are not sustainable for the agricultural sector. For example, the price of red diesel has increased by almost 50 per cent in the past 12 months alone. The cost of ammonium nitrate has increased by almost 200 per cent in the past 12 months. Minister, this isn't a crisis limited to farmers; the additional farm costs are passed on to the processing and then to the supermarket shelves. So, what steps is the Government taking to try and minimise this additional burden on farmers?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you, and I'd like to welcome Mabon ap Gwynfor to his new role. You're quite right—this cost of living is affecting everybody. We had an inter-ministerial group on Monday with Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs and my counterparts from Scotland and Northern Ireland, and one of the areas that I focused on, where we've seen a significant rise, is in fertilisers for our farmers, because it's clear that everything has gone up. So, we were pushing the UK Government to make sure they try and do something about further support. But I think one of the areas where I am able to make a difference, because clearly we've seen far more of a call on our mental health services by our farmers, is to ensure that I support our mental health charities. We launched FarmWell Wales during the COVID-19 pandemic, because, again, we saw a significant increase there. But I think it is really vital that all departments across Whitehall recognise that the cost-of-living crisis is affecting everybody.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: I thank the Minister, and I'm sure you, like me, enjoyed breakfast with the Farmers Union of Wales, which was collecting funds for the DPJ Foundation recently, which does excellent work in mental health.
This increase in input costs over the last few months is adding to a longer term problem facing our farmers. Here's a picture of how the costs have been increasing: back in 1970, you needed to sell around 163 lambs in order to buy a new tractor. By 2020, you would need to sell 864 lambs in order to purchase a new tractor. This naturally means that a number of farmers, particularly the smaller farms that are so common in rural Wales, have to use older machinery and infrastructure that are often no longer fit for purpose.
In addition to this, of course, they are now expected to develop more slurry stores to respond to the new NVZ requirements you placed on them. When the NVZ regulations were introduced in Northern Ireland, the Government there gave £150 million to fund the necessary capital works. To date, only £11.5 million of Welsh RDP money has been spent on capital works in total, and data from NFU Cymru shows that we would still need to spend up to £272 million of RDP funding by the end of 2023.
Minister, do you agree that one possible solution would be to use the RDP funds that remain in order to help farmers to build and improve farm infrastructure, as well as help businesses and contractors in rural areas? This would, therefore, enable investments in new machinery and infrastructure that would increase efficiency, reduce the environmental impact and improve safety by ensuring the viability of the industry.

Lesley Griffiths AC: So, the Member will be aware that we don't have the NVZs anymore; we have the agricultural pollution regulations and you'll be aware we're awaiting the current court judgment.
I did give significant funding—I think it was about £44 million, off the top of my head—to try and work with the agricultural sector around better slurry provision. I think it is really important that the RDP benefits, obviously, our rural communities—that's what it's there for. And it should be for things like infrastructure to help us with the climate change emergency. So, I'm looking at what funding is left in the RDP. I'm also awaiting advice from officials about a successor programme to the RDP. So, these are absolutely things that I will consider as part of that.

Welsh Lamb and Beef

Russell George AC: 3. How is the Welsh Government supporting the marketing of Welsh lamb and beef? OQ57579

Lesley Griffiths AC: The Welsh Government works closely with Hybu Cig Cymru, both in Wales and through our international offices, to support the marketing of Welsh lamb and beef. HCC were a partner at BlasCymru/TasteWales in October 2021, supporting a range of businesses showcasing and marketing meat products.

Russell George AC: Thank you, Minister, for your answer. I'd be particularly grateful for an update in regard to improvements on food labelling, working with the industry and the sector and supermarkets in particular. I ask this in the context of new markets being opened for Welsh lamb and beef, particularly as we think of new markets in the United States, for example. Now, we know that we've got high quality produce in Wales, of Welsh lamb and beef, and we also know that farmers pay very high attention to animal welfare. So, how can we sell that, sell brand Wales, knowing that many of these new markets demand high quality, and demand evidence of high quality, when it comes to animal welfare? How can we improve our labelling specifically to help sell brand Wales and Welsh lamb and beef in other new markets around the world?

Lesley Griffiths AC: It is really important that we wave the flag for Wales, and we do that in many guises. I mentioned our international offices. We've got Gulfood coming up in Dubai, I think next week, actually. And HCC will be part of the Welsh Government delegation, or supporting the Welsh Government delegation, in Dubai. We have continued with virtual overseas events, but it will be good to be able to go in person. So, we've got both Anuga and SIAL coming up this year. But we do welcome, obviously, the market being now opened in America. That's something that we've been working on for about six years, so it is very welcome.
And we know that people do look at the labelling, don't they—of course they do. I think one area where we have made huge improvements is marketing Welsh lamb and beef through the Welsh geographical indicators family. We've now got four red meats in that. You'll be aware that we had Gower salt marsh lamb—it was the first, actually, of the UK products in the new UK GI scheme. So, it's very important, and, obviously, that will be on the packaging. In food labelling in general, I think it is really important that, first of all, we don't let trade deals be done by the UK Government that will undermine those very high animal health and welfare standards. So, that is actually something we talked about at the inter-ministerial group that I referred to earlier with DEFRA. So, we are continuing to work on labelling. But I do think it's something that we've done very well, for a long time, and certainly the vision for our Welsh food and drink sector, not just red meat in particular, which I launched back in October, shows that.

Greyhound Racing

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: 4. How is the Government liaising with Caerphilly County Borough Council on inspections of the remaining greyhound racing track in Wales to ensure animal welfare standards? OQ57572

Lesley Griffiths AC: Inspections at Wales's remaining greyhound racing track have been arranged through a partnership delivery programme funded by the Welsh Government, which is managed and co-ordinated by Monmouthshire trading standards and the greyhound working group, a sub-group of the Animal Welfare Network Wales, one of our key partnership networks.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: In my region, there exists the last remaining greyhound racing track in Wales. This track is also independent, meaning it is not subject to any regulation or licensing requirements. There is no requirement for a veterinary presence or welfare oversight in place, as it stands. Hope Rescue say that, in the last four years, they have taken in 200 greyhounds from this track—40 of these sustained injuries. They fear this will increase when the track is due to become licensed later this year. There are only eight countries left in the world where greyhound racing is still allowed. Minister, is it not time for us to follow suit and ban this activity on the grounds of animal welfare?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. This is something that I am looking very closely at. I had a meeting just yesterday with Jane Dodds, who you'll be aware is a very firm believer in what you've just suggested, and it's something that I have asked officials to look at. I am hoping to have a meeting with Hope Rescue; I'd be very interested to hear their views. Obviously, they pulled out of attendance at the race track—they were there, I think, for several years. I'm also going to ask the Greyhound Board of Great Britain for a meeting to see what further we can do then. Clearly, if we looked at a ban of greyhound racing, we would have to look at evidence, consultation. It will all take a little while, and, obviously, legislative capacity would have to be available for me to do that. But it's certainly something—. And you just mentioned something right at the end that I have only recently found out, and that is that there are only eight countries in the world that still allow greyhound racing, and we are one of them.

Natasha Asghar AS: Minister, in 2018, the Greyhound Board of Great Britain launched its greyhound commitment, containing its expectations on how the sport should be run, with welfare at its heart. The safety of every greyhound racing at, as you mentioned, a GBGB licensed track is absolutely paramount—I 100 per cent believe in it. An independent veterinary surgeon is present at all GBGB tracks to check the health and well-being of every greyhound, both before and after racing. They are also there to provide emergency care in the event that a dog needs it. The board constantly strives to minimise the possibility of an injury occurring by funding research into track improvements, with a view to reducing injuries and helping to extend racing careers for dogs. Additionally, there have been a number of upgrades to racecourse kennels in recent years to ensure greyhounds can rest comfortably before and after their races, and each racecourse is regularly inspected to confirm that their facilities continue to meet the required standard. So, Minister, I know you answered my colleague just a second ago, but I just want to know, from my personal angle, whether you agree that, properly regulated, greyhound racing, with the highest standards of welfare at its core, is a spectator sport that creates jobs and provides much entertainment for its followers.

Lesley Griffiths AC: So, my interest is obviously in the one track that we have here in Wales, and one of my reasons for wanting to meet Hope Rescue is because I've seen some very concerning figures and statistics. And one of the things, again, I discussed with Jane Dodds yesterday was around the number of animals that have been injured, and fatally—they obviously died there. So, I'm really keen to understand why there is such a high number of injuries. Now, again, only through my own reading, I understand there is a bend where, unfortunately, a lot of dogs get injured, and some have died. So, my interest is in this one track, and I need to reassure myself. We have very high animal health and welfare standards here in Wales. I think we are a nation of animal lovers. Sometimes, I think we are far fonder of our animals than we are of our fellow humans. And I really want to be reassured, and at the moment I'm not being reassured.So, I think it's for me now to meet with other interested people. I have to say, the new intake of Members in this Senedd have really brought this up the political agenda and raised this with me, and it is an area of great concern.

And here's one of them—Jane Dodds. [Laughter.]

Jane Dodds AS: Diolch yn fawr iawn, Llywydd. Thank you to Peredur Owen Griffiths for raising this issue, which is important to many of us in the Senedd. As you've heard, the track in Caerphilly boasts as having one of the sharpest bends of any racetrack, and I want to read to you something from their literature. They say about this bend in their racetrack:
'greyhounds frequently find themselves flying into the first corner far too quickly to make the turn. The better the dog, the faster they approach the first bend and the worse the trouble they find.'
And I finish the quote there. Plans to increase the track will increase racing at Caerphilly fourfold, from one race per week to four. And even in 2020, when racing was significantly reduced because of COVID, across the UK's regulated tracks 3,575 greyhounds suffered serious injuries, and 401 dogs died. This is not a spectator sport that we want in Wales. And these include GBGB tracks, so I do come back to Natasha Asghar and say, 'Really, do we want dogs injured even on regulated tracks, and also dogs dying?' Given we know regulation does not stop greyhounds from dying and being injured—and I'm glad to hear that you're prepared to meet with Hope Rescue—I wonder if you would agree with me that there are serious concerns even about regulated tracks. Thank you. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Yes, I would agree with Jane Dodds. And, as I say, some of the figures—and you've just given some statistics now and some information about the track—lead me to be very concerned. I have had two meetings with my officials to discuss this, and I do want to assure Members that it is something I take very seriously, am very concerned about, and we'll see what we can do to look—. As you say, it's not just about regulation, but we'll look obviously within the animal welfare plan for Wales for this term of Government. Whilst it's a five-year programme, looking at greyhound racing is something I want to bring to the early part of the Senedd term.

Transport Connectivity

Mark Isherwood AC: 5. What discussions has the Minister had with Cabinet colleagues regarding transport connectivity in north Wales? OQ57543

Lesley Griffiths AC: I regularly meet with Cabinet colleagues. Our new multimillion-pound north Wales metro programme will transform rail, bus and active travel services across north Wales. It will make it easier and faster to travel across north Wales and build better connections with the north-west of England.

Mark Isherwood AC: Diolch. Speaking in last month's Westminster Hall debate on transport connectivity in Merseyside, Vale of Clwyd MP James Davies, who, topically, also chairs the Mersey Dee north Wales all-party parliamentary group, called for hourly rail services between Llandudno and Liverpool, which had been promised from the end of 2023, to be brought forward, stating:
'direct rail services from the north Wales coast ceased in the 1970s. Thanks to the reopening of the Halton curve, hourly services are promised from Llandudno to Liverpool, although not, I think, until December 2023. Will the Minister join me in calling on Transport for Wales to bring that forward if it can?'
Thanks to the £14.5 million Halton curve project, funded through the UK Government's local government funding awarded to the Liverpool city region local enterprise partnership, direct daily services between Wrexham and Liverpool, which you know of, were introduced in 2019, but the promised direct services between Llandudno and Liverpool are not expected until the back end of next year. What discussions are you, therefore, having with your Cabinet colleagues regarding an earlier introduction of the service by Welsh Government-owned Transport for Wales to help build our region back from the pandemic, attract visitors, boost the local economy and encourage more people onto rail for the good of the environment?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. You are correct; at the moment, our commitment is to deliver a new hourly service between Liverpool and Llandudno from December 2023. We'll also look to extend the current Llandudno to Manchester Airport service to include Bangor. I think one way the Member could help is that, in the absence of appropriate devolution of rail infrastructure and a fair funding settlement, we do need the UK Government to fulfil their responsibilities for improving the rail network in Wales.

Jack Sargeant AC: Building connectivity is about designing and building transport networks that are responsive to the needs of our communities. This means we do need to regulate the bus industry in a way that places community need and networks at the heart of our decision making. But we know, Minister, that the current regulations brought in under Thatcher's Government were based solely on profits. They stop cross-subsidy of routes and they see providers using the competition authorities to close down routes of rivals. Can I ask the Minister, therefore, do you agree with me that reregulating the bus industry should be at the top of our agenda, and, when we do look at that piece of work, that we should look to bus worker representatives, like Unite the Union, in which I declare an interest as a member? They should be involved, and we should listen in particular to them and to their 'get home safely' campaign, which promotes viable transport options for workers in the night-time economy.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Absolutely. We welcome the Unite union's 'get me home safe' campaign, and we'll continue to work with local authorities, Transport for Wales and obviously our bus companies to provide safer, more attractive late evening public transport services. As you know, we are looking to bring forward during this Senedd term a new bus Bill, which will incorporate new powers for local authorities to franchise out bus services across Wales to provide a more stable, accessible, attractive and integrated bus network for passengers. I think we are going to work really hard to transform the quality of bus and rail travel across Wales, and we will continue to provide funding to local authorities to improve the accessibility and safety of bus stops, because that's clearly an area of concern.

The Sustainable Farming Scheme

Peter Fox AS: 6. How will the sustainable farming scheme support habitat conservation projects? OQ57564

Lesley Griffiths AC: To support ecosystem resilience, our farmers will be paid to manage and create on-farm habitat. We will also support farmers to collaborate to deliver against local and national priorities at a landscape scale.

Peter Fox AS: Thank you, Minister, for the statement. Llywydd, I would like to just remind Members of the fact that I am a practising farmer, as stated in my interests. As I'm sure you're aware, Minister, this Friday marks the beginning of the Big Farmland Bird Count, organised by the Game and Wildlife Conservation Trust. This aims to encourage farmers and land managers to support farmland birds and to highlight the hard work already done by many of them to help reverse biodiversity loss. I'm sure, Minister, you would agree that the work going on is commendable. We know that promoting sustainability and biodiversity is something that the Welsh Government's proposed sustainable land management scheme aims to do. However, Minister, there are still grave concerns amongst farmers that future farming support pivots too much toward paying for public goods, with a lack of recognition about the importance of supporting those producers in Wales who are trying to produce high-quality affordable food for our communities. Minister, how will the proposed new scheme strike a balancebetween improving environmental outcomes within the agricultural sector and encouraging and supporting high-quality, sustainable food production to increase the resilience of rural economies and our food systems across Wales?

Lesley Griffiths AC: I've always made it very clear that producing food is absolutely a priority for our farmers, of course it is. You say there are grave concerns. We've been out to consultation three times now. The scheme is still not designed; we want to co-design that scheme. You will have heard me say many times that if it's not the right scheme for our farmers it won't work, so it's really important that they're part of that co-design. We're just asking farmers, and you may be one, to work with us in the summer when we go to the second part of the co-design of the scheme. What's really important, as we've said all along, is public money for public goods. When you say there are grave concerns, I don't hear those grave concerns in the way I did four or five years ago. I do think it's really important that we work together to make sure we get it right. Of course we will continue to support our farmers to produce food that has a low carbon footprint, but they will also be rewarded for the things that they don't get paid for at the moment—so, the clean air, the clean water, the work they do about mitigating flood, the work they do around mitigating drought, the work they do around animal health and welfare. I think it's really important that there is that balance. There has to be that balance, or it just won't work.

The Efficient Use of Food

Llyr Gruffydd AC: 7. Will the Minister provide an update on efforts to ensure that any food produced in Wales is used efficiently? OQ57576

Lesley Griffiths AC: The Welsh Government works with manufacturers, retailers and community food organisations to minimise waste in all parts of the food supply chain, from farm to fork. This delivers against other key goals, including halving food waste by 2025 and the resultant impact on cutting climate change emissions.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Thank you for that response. FareShare Cymru has celebrated its tenth birthday recently, and they're needed now more than ever, I would say. One aspect of their work is to run the Surplus with Purpose Cymru fund. The fund—which is funded by Government, in fairness—is intended to work with food businesses and farmers to prevent food waste by paying the costs of harvesting, packaging, freezing, transportation, whatever is needed to ensure that any leftover food is diverted to those who need it. The closing date for bids to that fund is at the end of this month, so can I ask you, as the Minister working most closely with food businesses and the agriculture sector, to make a particular effort in these final few weeks to promote that fund among those that you're involved with? Can I also, just as importantly if not more importantly, ask you to work with the Minister for Climate Change in order to ensure that this key fund can continue for next year, because of course, in tackling food waste, it does turn an environmental problem into a social solution?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Yes, I'd be very happy to do that. You referred to FareShare Cymru, and they've saved 819 tonnes of surplus food from waste. That's enough to provide almost 3 million meals just in one year. So, we can see the huge work that's done. Those meals were diverted to homeless shelters, school breakfast clubs and community centres, so it is very important. I'd be very happy to work to promote that over the next few weeks, and I will certainly have a discussion with the Minister for Climate Change, as you ask.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Minister, our fishing industry and indeed the aquaculture sector remain an essential element of the Welsh food strategy. From north Wales crab to Conwy and Menai mussels, sustainable producers are providing high-quality nutritious food that includes essential sources of protein and omega 3. With the consultation on the joint fisheries statement now live, something that I have responded to, the national benefit objective has come into stark focus once again. Of the approximate 660,000 tonnes of fish farmed and caught in the UK in 2014, 75 per cent was exported. I still continue to argue that the aqua-food sector here in Wales does now need to be integrated more fully into a new food and drink strategy, as currently the division from agri-food is preventing us from embarking on what could be described as a 'food in the round' strategy. Minister, in order to ensure efficient use of seafood harvested from our seas, would you clarify what steps the Welsh Government are taking to review and amend public procurement practices so that the use of this beautiful seasonal Welsh seafood and fish increases within our schools, our hospitals, and is integrated onto the dishes of those working in the public sector across Wales? Thank you.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. Certainly, I do all I can to promote fish and our aquaculture sector. You mentioned the joint fisheries statement, which is out to consultation now. I'm actually being scrutinised in committee tomorrow on it, and I do think it's a big opportunity. As we look at procurement, you'll be aware that Rebecca Evans, the Minister for Finance and Local Government, is looking at what more we can do to procurement. I think you're right about making sure that schools—. I was quite a latecomer to eating fish. I think, as a child, I certainly wasn't that keen, and maybe it's because it wasn't given to me in my school meals or as much at home—we were really big meat eaters. So, I think you're right that there perhaps is a bit more we can do to promote fish and certainly shellfish with our younger people, and there is an opportunity as we go through this procurement process to do that.

The Sustainable Farming Scheme

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: 8. How will the sustainable farming scheme help tackle the nature emergency? OQ57546

Lesley Griffiths AC: Responding to the nature emergency is a key objective of our proposed sustainable farming scheme. Future farm support will reward farmers who take action to maintain and create resilient ecosystems.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Thank you, Minister, for that answer. I'm giving at the outset full credit and any royalties that accrue from any mention hereof to Sam Kurtz for a statement of opinion he laid yesterday, fully supported on a cross-party basis by Mabon ap Gwynfor and myself—and there'll be many others, no doubt—on the continuing hedges, edges and tree-planting campaign spearheaded by the Woodland Trust Cymru and Coed Cymru. Does the Minister agree with this campaign that there's a need to increase trees in the right places on farms to urgently mitigate the climate and ecological emergency, and that in particular there are multiple nature, ecosystem and global cooling benefits, and, indeed, flood prevention and mitigation et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, that can come from an agreed quality of maintenance and expansion of hedges and shelterbelts, planted fresh watercourses at edges, and expanded wood pasture? If so, will she support the role of good-quality expanded hedges and edges as a universal part of a sustainable farming scheme, providing direct support for farmers on the basis of multiple public and environmental benefits for cost-effective use of public money?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. Certainly that will be part of our sustainable farming scheme, which, as I mentioned in my earlier answer to Peter Fox, we are currently co-designing with our farmers and other interested bodies. You'll be aware that my colleague the Deputy Minister for Climate Change did a deep dive into the barriers of planting trees and what we could do to ensure that—. If we are going to react to the climate emergency in the way that we want to and to become a net-zero Wales by 2050, we've got to plant 86 million trees over the next decade. We haven't been planting enough trees—I don't think anybody would say that we had.
It's really important that we help our farmers get involved in these plans. The Deputy Minister has set up a woodland finance working group, which obviously my officials sit on with his, because I hold most of the funding in relation to trees, but, of course, the policy sits within the climate change ministry. It's really important that we work across Government, so it's good to hear of cross-party statements of opinion. We want to work with anybody, our stakeholders, to ensure that we do plant significantly more trees. But what is really important, and you said it at the beginning of your question, is that we plant the right tree in the right place.

The Sustainable Farming Scheme

Carolyn Thomas AS: 9. What are the Welsh Government's priorities for the sustainable farming scheme? OQ57559

Lesley Griffiths AC: Tackling the climate and nature emergencies, alongside the sustainable production of food, are the objectives for our proposed sustainable farming scheme. Our intention is to create a sustainable, resilient agriculture sector in Wales for current and future generations.

Carolyn Thomas AS: Thank you for that answer, Minister. I've been contacted by constituents who raise the fact that, at present, public rights of way are not part of our current cross-compliance for the current Welsh Government agricultural scheme. If the Welsh Government were to make public rights of way part of cross-compliance, it would really give the farming community an incentive to open and maintain their public rights of way to be of much higher standard, to achieve their annual payment from Welsh Government. Would the Minister consider this when making plans for the sustainable farming scheme? I believe it could deliver positive outcomes for the farming community and ramblers and walkers who enjoy our wonderful countryside right across Wales. Thank you.

Lesley Griffiths AC: We are looking at actions that may improve public rights of way. So, it could mean that there are opportunities for farmers to upgrade footpaths to cycle or bridle ways, for instance, or indeed change the supporting infrastructures, like the types of gates that there are, or stiles. The aim of the scheme will be to increase the proportion of public rights of way that are open, easy to use and well signed, and with over two thirds of public rights of way on farmland, enhancing existing public rights of way beyond the legal requirements will allow farmers to contribute further to our nation's health and prosperity, whilst also providing greater access to our cultural and heritage rural areas. So, to get the most benefits, the scheme will aim to support the priorities of local communities through delivering on the priorities set out by rights of way improvement plans and by our local access forums.

The Decarbonisation and COVID Challenge Fund

Samuel Kurtz MS: 10. Will the Minister outline the criteria for receiving funding under the Welsh Government’s decarbonisation and COVID challenge fund? OQ57555

Lesley Griffiths AC: The aim of the decarbonisation and COVID challenge fund is to support the recovery of the Welsh food and drink sector. To qualify, businesses must demonstrate innovative solutions in one or more areas, from energy conservation to carbon capture.

Samuel Kurtz MS: Thank you, Minister. Velfrey Vineyard, a small, independent and family-run vineyard near Whitland in my constituency, produces excellent quality wine, and I was fortunate enough to visit and sample some of their finest last year. Concerns have been raised, however, that applications to the Government's decarbonisation and COVID challenge fund are being seen more favourably if they are from larger businesses rather than smaller businesses. What assurances can you give as the Minister to ensure all applications are looked upon equally?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Well, I can assure you that all applications are looked on equally. We had 39 applications, and funding, as I say, will be provided on the criteria I set out in my original answer to you. My understanding is that it's not the case that larger companies would be looked on more favourably at all. It was a matter around, as I said, energy and carbon capture. There's green growth as well, and looking at logistics decarbonisations. Food and drink is a priority sector and it's really important we help it recover following the pandemic. But if the Member would like to write to me if there is a specific concern, I'd be very happy to look into it for him.

Diolch i'r Gweinidog. And I must say, I love it when a plan comes together. I asked business managers on Tuesday to ask their Members and their Ministers for succinct, concise questions and answers, and I've seen it in action in the previous question session. An excellent duet of Ministers giving concise and to-the-point answers, and great succinct questions from Members as well. And we injected a bit of pace to our questioning, which is good to see.

3. Topical Questions

Right, we've still got one question that remains this afternoon. That's the topical question. Let's see if we can keep up the good work. Mark Isherwood to ask the topical question, to be answered by the Minister, Jane Hutt. Mark Isherwood.

The Winter Fuel Support Scheme

Mark Isherwood AC: 1. Will the Minister make a statement on the winter fuel support scheme payment? TQ594

Jane Hutt AC: Thank you very much, Mark Isherwood. The Welsh Government winter fuel support scheme payment is being doubled from £100 to £200 as the cost-of-living crisis intensifies. A written statement has been published to accompany my announcement.

Mark Isherwood AC: Thank you, and I read that a few moments ago. But after yesterday's Welsh Government announcement that the Welsh Government has doubled the winter fuel support scheme payment to £200 and extended the deadline to apply to 28 February, Fuel Poverty Coalition Cymru representatives contacted me as chair of the cross-party group on fuel poverty and energy efficiency, welcoming the news for those who are eligible. However, they recognise that it won't help or reach everyone in need, including those in fuel poverty not in receipt of means-tested benefits, and stated it is vital that as many eligible households receive it as possible. They therefore asked me to ask: how will the Welsh Government be using the extended deadline to boost promotion of the support available? How many of the approximately 350,000 eligible households have successfully applied to date? What proportion is this of all those estimated to be eligible overall? How does take-up compare across local authority areas in Wales, where we want to avoid any postcode lottery? And of those who've successfully applied thus far, how many and what proportion were in receipt of council tax reduction and therefore contacted directly by the council?
Age Cymru has also called for the eligibility criteria for the scheme to be extended to include older people in receipt of pension credit, where basic household bills are fast becoming unaffordable for many pensioners living on a low fixed income, and a constituent e-mailed yesterday asking me to remind the Welsh Government about the problems especially faced by those with conditions such as post-polio syndrome. How will the Minister therefore respond to these legitimate questions from relevant bodies? Again, I emphasise I'm asking this as chair of the cross-party group, not to score any party political points.

Jane Hutt AC: Well, thank you very much, Mark Isherwood. We are in the middle of, as the Resolution Foundation calls it, a cost-of-living catastrophe, and this winter fuel support scheme was launched as part of the household support fund to target families and those who are most vulnerable in terms of the questions that are now facing many families about whether to heat or eat. We find that shocking, don't we, in this rich country we live in. So, it will go some way to supporting low-income households with rising energy bills and the increasing cost of everyday essentials.
As for answering your questions, as of the end of January, data from 22 local authorities shows over 146,000 applications have been received, 105,785 applications have been paid, and local authorities are working hard not just to promote it; they've contacted all those they deem to be eligible. Three hundred and fifty thousand are deemed to be eligible in Wales, so we need to do all we can, and the cross-party group plays its part with its partners to promote this.
As I said, it is about supporting working-age households, and I will say this is also about not just the increasing fuel costs and food costs, but those who suffered an income shock when the UK Government ended their £20 a week uplift for universal credit, and we want it to support those households who receive one of the earnings replacement means-tested benefits that the UK refused to increase by £20 per week.
But I will say, in terms of the representations, and particularly I've seen that from Age Cymru, I hope you as chair of the cross-party group, Mark Isherwood, and Conservative spokesperson, will be urging the UK Government to do what they should be doing in terms of increasing their winter fuel payment and also extending the eligibility for the Warm Homes discount. We've heard nothing from the UK Government. Those are the payments whereby eligible older people can get help with their energy bills and also—and I'll finish with this point, to be succinct, Llywydd—we are of course delivering a take-up campaign to ensure that older people and pensioners get the entitlements that they need and are right to receive, and that includes pension credit. You know that there is a lower take-up of pension credit than there should be. In fact, two in five people eligible for pension credit in Wales don't claim it, and those in receipt of pension credit could then get access to the Warm Homes discount.
So, we're playing our part. I won't say more now about this, but I'm sure you will be aware that the single advice fund is working across Wales with a welfare benefit take-up group, including older people's representatives. And finally, of course, older people can also apply for our discretionary assistance fund, which has been extended as well. But please can we call on the UK Government to increase their winter fuel payment and their Warm Homes discount, and also, as we face this fuel cap rise, can we get support for the social tariff for energy users?

Sioned Williams MS: Thousands of households in Wales, a number corresponding to the whole of Swansea, are already having problems paying for everyday items, and, as we've heard, the increasing energy costs and tax rises are approaching, and therefore those additional costs of over £1,000 will be a step too far for those already facing social and economic disadvantage. I welcome the Government's steps to tackle the poverty and cost-of-living crisis, especially this new payment announced this week. However, problems exist in terms of delivering these measures as a result of the fact that local authorities are responsible for their implementation, and there is evidence that this is creating inconsistencies in terms of the support actually reaching families on the ground in various parts of Wales. So, what is the Government doing to ensure that the level of take-up in terms of these payments is consistent across Wales, as well as promoting the fact that they are available? And, as we face such a crisis, which will be extended, with just a few months before the lifting of the cap on energy prices, will the Government introduce a cost-of-living crisis action plan as a matter of urgency? I agree with the Minister's comments in terms of the powers in the hands of the Tory Government in Westminster, but does the Minister agree that it's up to us in Wales to safeguard our own people from this economic storm?

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch yn fawr, Sioned Williams, and thank you for highlighting the pressures on your constituents, the cost-of-living pressures that are so real and are so vivid and coming through every day in terms of reports from the Resolution Foundation, the Bevan Foundation. Local authorities are playing their role. I think the take-up, given the time we've had—. We've extended the timing for this, extended the deadline, as Mark Isherwood said, to the end of February. Payments will be issued by local authorities. I have to say that I've had some very strong support coming back from constituents with real examples of what this has meant for them. And I'll just quote one from north Wales, who said he would like me to share this with the Senedd:
'Of course, the first £100 alleviated my hard poverty for this month and will also keep me warm for at least a month and a bit. Another £100 will mean I can keep warm in March, April and up to mid May, by which time my heating will be off until at least the start of October, hopefully later.'
He was saying that he has to consume the cheapest, poorest quality food. This £200 is what we are doing as a Welsh Government to try and reach out to our constituents.
Now, as you know, following the debate that you led very recently, we are organising a round-table summit on 17 February, cross-Government, with all our partners, and it will include many of the partners in the cross-party group, in terms of tackling the cost-of-living crisis. But I will say again, not just in terms of the entitlements we've got and our discretionary assistance fund, can I also appeal to people who are off-grid in terms of oil—and I know this affects many Senedd Members here—the discretionary assistance fund is available to help with those costs in terms of access to oil as a key energy source? This is where we have got to address this. But it's not just in terms of support from us, it has to be from the UK Government as well, who are silent on this—silent—when we see these energy price costs rising. But also to say that this is a real opportunity for the UK Government to show that they are actually dealing with the cost-of-living crisis, which is affecting people so adversely and cruelly at this time.

Jenny Rathbone AC: Thank you very much. I appreciate all the work that the Welsh Government is doing to try to ensure that everybody is taking up the benefits they're entitled to. But, as you said earlier, mainly, the levers are with the UK Government. And I appreciate it must be very difficult to get anybody to answer the phone when the UK Government is in the grip of a leadership crisis, but I wondered if you could put to them the point that other European countries are all taking action to use Government taxes to reduce the cost of energy bills. So, the Dutch Cabinet has cut energy taxes and put more money into insulation; in France, they're putting pressure on EDF, which is state owned, to reduce the cost to French households; in Spain, there's a windfall tax on utilities; in Germany, they're cutting the green energy scheme; in Italy, the same; and, in Sweden, nearly £500 million equivalent, as well as Norway. So, is there any possibility that we can get anything out of the UK Government about changing the way in which we collect the green taxes so that they are part of the mainstream income tax collection, or indeed a windfall tax—either way—so that it doesn't fall on those who are most deeply affected by this huge rise in energy prices?

Jane Hutt AC: Thank you very much, Jenny Rathbone. You will know from the work that you're doing as Chair of the Equality and Social Justice Committee that the Minister for Climate Change, Julie James, and I wrote to the Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy way back in early January. I shared that letter with Senedd Members. So, many calls, some of which I've mentioned already in terms of winter fuel payments, the Warm Homes discount scheme, but also looking at the ways in which they could—. And saying that they should take those green and social policy costs out of people's household bills and into general taxation. It's great that you've quoted all those other countries that are actually taking action to both support people who are in fuel poverty and facing deeper crisis, but also that they're recognising that they've got to fund this through general taxation. And, of course, in terms of a windfall tax, there are calls for value added tax holidays, et cetera. But, we have made these points.
We've put these points to the UK Government and this is an opportunity now for us to unite, I hope, in this Senedd to make sure that they play their part. They have the levers. You've heard National Energy Action. They make it clear that this is where we expect the UK Government to respond and ensure that they support people who are falling deeper and deeper into poverty in terms of cost of living, and also they do it the right way in terms of a social energy tariff as well.

I thank the Minister.

4. 90-second Statements

We now move to the 90-second statements. The first of those is from Sioned Williams.

Sioned Williams MS: Diolch, Llywydd. On the last Saturday of January in 1872, Neath Rugby Football Club met with Swansea to compete in the first recorded club fixture in Welsh rugby history. On Friday, this historic match will be commemorated as Neath and Swansea do battle again. Neath RFC, the oldest club in Wales, are celebrating their hundred and fiftieth year. Over that time, the Welsh all blacks have seen and done it all; they’ve competed against some of the giants of the sport, won an impressive number of cup victories, and set records. Many former players not only represented the club with distinction, but also their country; men like Gareth Llewellyn, Dai Morris, Jonathan Davies, Martyn Davies, Brian Thomas, Duncan Jones, Shane Williams and too many to mention today have secured their permanent place in the history of Welsh rugby.
Those who have played for Neath have both entertained countless people in Wales and around the world, and have inspired many to get into the sport. But, it’s not just the players who should be celebrated; it’s the entire community around the team, from coaching staff to those working at the clubhouse, volunteers to the dedicated and passionate supporters. Today, I wish to reflect upon the rich legacy and significant contribution of Neath RFC. What started on that cold day in January transformed a sport, a town and a nation. Llongyfarchiadau, Castell-nedd.Here’s to the next 150 years.

Siân Gwenllian AC: I wanted to share with the Senedd some information about a new and beautiful short film that breathes new life into one of our nation's legends. Pupils of Ysgol Gynradd Rhosgadfan in my constituency have made the film, and it was shown at the COP26 climate change summit in Glasgow, and it enjoyed an enthusiastic reception. The children and their parents had an opportunity to see the film on a big screen in a special screening at the Galeri in Caernarfon, and it was my pleasure to join them.
Rhosgadfan is one of the most disadvantaged villages in my constituency, and some of the families have never had the chance to attend the theatre previously. The film is called Blot-deuwedd, and it re-imagines one of the most well-known tales of the Mabinogion, the tale of Blodeuwedd, the girl made of flowers. The pupils of Ysgol Gynradd Rhosgadfan have set the tale in a modern context, in responding to the climate emergency. The 'blot' in Blot-deuwedd represents mankind's destructive mark on the world. The acting, the filming, the animation and the locations create an alluring composition, and I do encourage you all to watch Blot-deuwedd, and I congratulate everyone who has been part of the project. But most of all, I thank the children for breathing new life into an old legend in such a relevant way, as we face one of the great challenges of our age.

James Evans MS: I was honoured to host the best dart players in the world at our Parliament this afternoon, as they prepare for the first night of the Premier League Darts in Cardiff tomorrow. As a keen darts player myself, it was great to host this alongside my friend, colleague and darts player and darts fan, Jack 'The Beard to be Feared' Sargeant. These players who visited our Parliament included Wales's very own world No.1, Gerwyn Price, and last year's premier league champion, Jonny Clayton.
I'm sure the whole Senedd wishes the Welsh boys well in the premier league this year. Wales is leading the way on the global darts scene, and we should all be extremely proud of the players who inspire millions of people on a daily basis around the world. I look forward to welcoming the Professional Darts Corporation and the players back to the Senedd in the future to showcase their incredible talents here in our home, the Welsh Parliament. Diolch, Lywydd.

Diolch yn fawr. I'm a bit of a darts fan myself, so I was particularly keen to accept that statement today.

Thank you all for that. We will now suspend proceedings briefly, and we'll take a break to allow changeovers in the Chamber. Thank you.

Plenary was suspended at 15:20.

The Senedd reconvened at 15:37, with the Deputy Presiding Officer (David Rees) in the Chair.

5. Welsh Conservatives Debate: Obesity

The following amendments have been selected: amendment 1 in the name of Lesley Griffiths, and amendment 2 in the name of Siân Gwenllian.

Welcome back. The next item is the Welsh Conservatives debate on obesity. I call on James Evans to move the motion.

Motion NDM7903 Darren Millar
To propose that the Senedd:
1. Expresses its concern that nearly two thirds of adults in Wales are currently overweight or obese.
2. Notes that COVID-19 has a disproportionate effect on those living with obesity, with more than half of critical care admissions having a BMI of over 30.
3. Further notes that weight-management services were paused or adapted as the Welsh NHS treated COVID patients.
4. Calls on the Welsh Government to:
a) urgently reopen those weight-management services which have been paused during the pandemic;
b) indicate when specialist multidisciplinary weight-management services will be expanded across Wales; and
c) provide extra funding to ensure that weight-management services are able to cope with increased need.

Motion moved.

James Evans MS: Diolch, Deputy Llywydd. I move the motion in the name of Darren Millar. Obesity is one of the biggest health crises the world faces. For the first time in history, children are expected to live shorter lives than their parents, and most of this is due to obesity. COVID-19 has exposed the poor physical health of Wales. We have the highest death rate for COVID-19 per 100,000 of any of the UK nations, and currently, two thirds of the population is overweight or obese. It is clear that the physical health of the nation must be a priority for the Welsh Government, and for the Minister. Figures published by the Welsh Government's own StatsWales highlight that nearly two thirds, or 61 per cent, of those over the age of 16 in Wales reported in 2021 a body mass index of over 25.
Being overweight substantially increases the risk of a number of chronic diseases. In particular, those who are overweight are at specific risk of developing type 2 diabetes, hypertension, cardiovascular disease, strokes. It also causes kidney disease, certain types of cancer, sleep apnoea, gout, osteoarthritis and liver disease, just to name a few. So, the case for prioritising obesity is clear. Obesity is projected to cost our Welsh NHS £465 million a year by 2050, but almost £2.4 billion to the Welsh economy and society as a whole. These costs will potentially deny life-saving, life-prolonging treatments to the patients in our Welsh NHS who need them.
Figures from Cancer Research UK show that being overweight is the second biggest cause of cancer in the UK. More than one in 20 cancer cases are caused by excess weight. Cancer research also highlighted that keeping a healthy weight reduces the risk of 13 different types of cancer. We all need to work together on this. This is an important issue, and I think we should put politics aside. We all need to be rightly concerned that nearly two thirds of adults in Wales are currently overweight or obese. I'm sure everyone agrees that is a worrying statistic.
In 2021, the Welsh Conservatives stood on pledges to improve the physical health and well-being of the nation by providing free access to local authority gyms and leisure centres for 16 to 24-year-olds. We said we'd invest more money in active transport, walking and cycling and that we would promote healthy lifestyles in schools. We did say we'd create a community sports bounce-back fund, and I'm really keen that Ministers have actually looked and put this in place. We all know the saying 'prevention is better than cure', but, sadly, we don't actually do what we preach.
Maybe I'm just an overenthusiastic political newbie here, an idealist, someone who believes that things can change. I don't believe we should stick to the status quo. But what is the alternative here? For two decades, politicians and Ministers in this place have talked on this issue. They've created strategies, had public consultations, gone back and forth, back and forth, but we're getting nowhere, because things in Wales are getting worse. The world has changed, and we must understand that. People are living far more static lifestyles than before. In this place, we tend to sit down a lot of the time and don't live that active lifestyle. If you're overweight or obese, you need to do that because you are putting yourself at extremely high risk of becoming unwell.
Lots of ideas have been tried, including sugar taxes and huge spending on public messaging, so why aren't we seeing the results? I think we need to move away from the current ideas and policies in place, and try and look at this from a strategic, objective standpoint. There's clearly a significant problem with the quality of food being consumed, not just here in Wales but around the world. But people aren't talking about obesity and taking it seriously. Being obese is as dangerous as being a chain smoker or an alcoholic, but it doesn't seem to have the same sort of public image as what those things do, about living a healthy lifestyle. We're all feeling the consequences, not just here in Wales but globally. Diabetes was virtually a non-existent disease in the nineteenth century. In the United States a bit ago, the percentage of diabetics was one in 10,000, and research now shows that's one in 11. That's a startling statistic.
Diet has changed, though. We've gone from real wholesome foods to processed foods, low-fat processed foods to high-sugar processed foods. This, combined with the fact that people haven't got as active jobs as they used to have, that people are more stagnant, means we're seeing obesity get worse, because too many people in our schools and wider are just simply not educated about food and where it comes from. People do need to start living a healthy, balanced and active lifestyle, and that needs to be promoted by Government. This can be addressed by some of the points that I raised earlier around promoting healthy lifestyles in school, encouraging sport, free gym access for local youngsters and teaching people where their food comes from.
I believe we need to see a full-scale change of approach towards tackling this issue. The policy raised here by the Welsh Conservatives, Plaid Cymru, who unfortunately are not here, the Liberal Democrats—. Everybody in this place has good ideas, and not one party has a monopoly on those. So, I welcome all ideas, and I welcome almost everything the Plaid Cymru amendment said. So, I hope, today, we can back the changes, and the Welsh Government will put the support into place to hold a full-scale review of obesity strategy, because doing nothing simply is not good enough. If we do nothing, this will become the biggest health crisis of a generation. Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd.

Before I move on, just to highlight the fact that there are Plaid Cymru Members online who are taking part in this debate.

I have selected the two amendments to the motion. I call on the Deputy Minister for Mental Health and Well-being, Lynne Neagle, to move formally amendment 1.

Amendment 1—Lesley Griffiths
Delete point 4 and replace with:
Acknowledges:
a) the new 2022-24 delivery plan, due to launch on 1 March, which supports the Healthy Weight: Healthy Wales Strategy and aims to prevent and reduce obesity over the next two years.
b) the £5.8m investment into obesity services accompanying the plan, to enable health boards to deliver a revised All Wales Weight Management Pathway and equitable services, including specialist multidisciplinary weight-management services in Wales.

Amendment 1 moved.

Lynne Neagle AC: Formally.

I call on Rhun ap Iorwerth to move amendment 2, tabled in the name of Siân Gwenllian.

Amendment 2—Siân Gwenllian
Add as new point at end of motion:
Calls on the Welsh Government to prioritise preventative measures to reduce obesity in Wales, such as:
a) investing in resources to promote physical activity in all communities;
b) improving health education;
c) increasing the time allocated to physical education lessons in schools;
d) Investigate the use of taxation tools to encourage a better diet.

Amendment 2 moved.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer. I thank the Conservatives for bringing forward this motion before us today. I will make some comments and mention our amendment.
I certainly don't disagree with what is in the original motion, and I've certainly tried to do what I can over the years to voice my concerns about the impact of obesity. It broke my heart to see Anglesey, some years ago, at the top of the national table in terms of how many children were obese, and that's why you'll hear me call for investment in physical activity and so forth. And that's what's missing from this motion, I think. You can't talk about the problem of obesity and the need to invest in weight management services without taking that step back and looking at the bigger picture. And I do welcome the clear suggestion there that the Conservatives will support our amendments because of that.
If obesity is a global pandemic, and it is, if being obese does increase the risk of chronic illnesses, diabetes, if it is one of the main causes of cancer, if it imposes great costs on health services, if it decreases people's living standards, if it leads to psychological problems, and it affects two thirds of the people in our country—well, we need to go to the core of that problem, don't we, from birth, and we need to tackle the preventative agenda.
As a paper that I read in the National Library of Medicine in America says:

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: 'The most promising strategies are education and efforts by individuals to make responsible choices several times every day to protect, most effectively by prevention, their most valuable asset.'

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: There's nothing more valuable than our own health, and somehow we have to ensure that we do invest in all of those things that are going to give the best possible start to people in their lives. Our amendment talks about resources for promoting physical activity, improving health education, more time for physical education. I welcome the pilots that are currently taking place on the school day to create more time for PE. We talk again about the idea of having some kind of levy on the least healthy foods. In Mexico, there was a 10 per cent reduction in the consumption of unhealthy foods after a tax was introduced. Let's look at all of these things in their entirety. We've used the word 'pandemic' a lot in another context over the last two years; this is a genuine pandemic and we need to look under every stone to look for the solutions.

John Griffiths AC: I very much agree with the sentiments expressed in terms of the importance of obesity and tackling obesity if we are to create the sort of Wales we want to see in terms of health and well-being. It is a major challenge and it has been for some time a growing challenge, and we do need to make sure that the NHS responds effectively when people have health problems connected with obesity. But I very much agree that, beyond that, we need to move much more onto the preventative agenda, and I do believe that schools are absolutely crucial.
We had Tanni Grey-Thompson's report talking about the importance of making sure that our young people, our children, get into good habits early on that will stay with them for life; the importance of the school curriculum in ensuring that children are active enough in schools, they realise the importance of staying fit, active and healthy, and that there are those extra activities beyond the school day. Because I think we all know that some children get the mum or dad taxi experience where they develop their interests and their abilities through sport and activity and other extra curricular matters. Other children, particularly children in more deprived communities, do not so often get that experience, but they will get it, hopefully, through school if it's provided at the school during or beyond the school day. I really think we need to ensure that we do everything we can with and through our schools.
Others are helping that effort. In Newport, for example, Newport Live, which is the leisure trust, has a school sports programme and makes its facilities available to schools and works with our schools. They're also very active in the community, dealing with those deprivation factors around inactivity. They have a Positive Futures programme, for example, which reaches out to communities. They also work with the NHS through the Wales national exercise referral scheme, and we have Newport county's County in the Community arm working with schools providing a six-week programme for 900 nine to 10-year-olds every single year, and they are also reaching out into our communities using facilities to deliver sport and activity throughout the year. They do find, though, during the winter months, that half of that community outreach programme has to stop because there isn't lighting at some of those facilities, and they also find that the surfaces aren't everything they should be, and I think that's something we should look at addressing through Welsh Government, local government, Sport Wales and other partners to ensure that the facilities are up to the mark. And similarly for all those grass-roots sports clubs, such as Undy football club, for example, which has over 500 people active on a weekly basis—lots of youngsters, girls, women, getting active, enjoying sport and also enjoying the social aspects. I do believe we need to provide more support to these community players, Dirprwy Lywydd. Diolch yn fawr.

Peter Fox AS: Thank you, Deputy Llywydd. Can I thank James Evans for bringing forward this important and timely debate? And as everybody in the Chamber I'm sure would agree, obesity is a serious public health issue; James pointed out the issues, as well as Rhun. The Welsh health service—it's costing that millions a year to treat, and things are getting worse. It is an issue that clearly needs to be tackled head on, but, to do so, we need to look more widely at the issue, rather than simply encouraging people to be more active, because, fundamentally, issues like obesity and malnutrition are interlinked with people's diets, which is dependent on the availability and accessibility of food. And so the question is how we improve the accessibility and availability of good quality, nutritious and healthy food to help prevent issues such as obesity in the first place, as well as responding to the various socioeconomic issues that can lead to obesity.
In a recent report, the Food Research Collaboration has argued that a substantial body of evidence has shown that connected integrated policy making is vital for tackling complex cross-cutting issues such as food and obesity, rather than piecemeal policy approaches. This is not necessarily a simple thing to achieve, but the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development has previously called on Governments to undertake a stock take of policies relevant to food systems, increasing the evidence base on policy interactions. I think there is also more scope for us to use education as a preventative measure to help improve the health and well-being of future generations. Something that Food Sense Wales has called for is an integrated policy around food in schools, better aligning Government policy to improve food and education, offer more opportunity for local producers to supply more of their products locally and increase the supply of healthy food in schools. This would benefit the environment, improve the well-being of children, and boost local economics. Those overarching aims are something that my proposed food Bill aims to establish. In drafting the Bill, I've heard an increasing body of evidence that points towards the need to rethink how the food system here in Wales is designed and how to integrate issues like malnutrition and obesity into the wider food system to ensure that the various Government policies and plans all pull together in the same direction.
To conclude, Deputy Llywydd, I thank my colleagues for bringing forward this timely debate and urge all Members to support the original motion. This is so important a subject; we can't shy away from it. Thank you.

Jenny Rathbone AC: Thank you very much. James was right to mention that this is a global tragedy. The poorest countries are also the ones who are being absolutely bombarded with advertising of sugary drinks, otherwise known as fizzy drinks, and also processed food, when these countries absolutely cannot afford to treat the diabetes that is the inevitable consequence. So, it is appalling that these multinational companies behave in this way.
The rare countries that do not have the advertising ubiquitous all over the place are the ones that are the healthiest, and we have to remind ourselves that the healthiest that the British population has ever been was during the second world war and afterwards, when we had rationing, and therefore people were unable to eat more than a very small amount of food that was actually poisoning them.
So, obesity is the second biggest cause of early death after smoking, and it will soon overtake it, because we are being very effective in stopping people from smoking. Amongst the many tragic failures of the UK Government is the failure to legislate to have clear, traffic-light labelling on all food products, so people can see just how disastrous particular foodstuffs are for your health. Far too many takeaway food outlets are drowning in fat, sugar and salt, as that is the cheapest way of disguising tasteless food. And it is also how the multinational food processing companies make their billions. So, to counter that is really, really difficult, because people have forgotten how to cook, and we are having to rectify that in everything we're doing, whether it's in our schools or in other community centres. We simply have to revive the idea that you can cook a meal with some very, very simple ingredients, and it's much tastier than anything that's dished up by somebody who's only really wanting to take your money off you.
So, I do recall a very important move by the then Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services in the last Senedd, which was Eluned Morgan, to ensure that there were weight-management programmes targeted in all local authorities on people were in danger of becoming type 2 diabetic, and I hope that it may it be possible for the current Deputy Minister to be able to tell us how well that roll-out is going, because I think it's an extremely important programme. Prevention is always cheaper than treatment after the event, so this is a way we can definitely try and halt the absolute epidemic in type 2 diabetes.

Laura Anne Jones AC: I'm grateful for the opportunity to speak in this Chamber once again on obesity, and I thank James Evans for bringing this to the floor today and shining a spotlight on the absolute need to tackle obesity head on once again. Obesity isn't just a cosmetic problem; it's a complex disease and concerning medical problem that increases the risk of major health complications, including many outlined by my colleague James Evans earlier, including heart disease, diabetes, high blood pressure and even cancer.
In 2016, 1.9 billion people were classed as overweight, with 650 million people obese, and worldwide obesity has nearly tripled since 1975—worrying figures. Worryingly, we face a stark picture in Wales. Statistics show that nearly two thirds of people aged 16 or over reported in 2021 that they have a BMI of more than 25, making them obese or overweight. Incredibly worrying, this picture is not good for our young people either, with obesity and overweight levels amongst Welsh children now the highest they've ever been, and they will keep rising unless we act now. Although the Labour Welsh Government have launched numerous initiatives since I've been here under the 'Healthy Weight: Healthy Wales' programme, three years on and it appears that little progress has been made to engrain healthy habits into the Welsh population.
There are various factors that play into the obesity crisis, one of the recent contributors, obviously, being the pandemic, as was outlined earlier. Over the past two years, we've seen the closure of gyms, swimming pools and even outdoor exercise limited. We saw millions of people forced into inactivity, and this had a truly devastating impact on our nation's health. It's clear that we need a serious action plan to combat obesity. Any forthcoming plan needs to be all-encompassing, a truly cross-portfolio recognition, and a recognition again that prevention is always better than cure. New sporting facilities in all parts of Wales—not just in cities but in rural areas, to give everyone a chance to get fit—are needed, and improved roads so that it's safe and enticing to take up cycling, running and walking. Yet we seem to be governed by an anti-road Labour Party, who have allocated the roads resilience fund quite literally nothing in the budget.
Being the shadow education Minister, in any part of a plan to combat obesity, I want to see healthy, nutritious school meals implemented, and better education on how important a balanced diet is, and how important an active lifestyle is. Prevention and education are always better than cure, and I hope to see this form part of the new curriculum. Crucially, we need to start thinking outside the box, as what we're currently doing isn't working. Why not look at something simple like adult outdoor gyms placed next to playgrounds so that both children and parents can stay fit simultaneously? These are simple, effective and not costly ideas that we need to look at.
To conclude, we need to see proactivity from the Ministers and fresh ideas on how to tackle obesity. It's not enough to think that banning bad foods or adverts will be enough; the magnitude of the economic impacts presented by obesity are so significant, and help us really understand that now is the time for urgent action. We need to encourage and promote lifestyle changes and make it as easy as possible for everyone in Wales to keep fit and lead an active lifestyle. Now is the time to act. Thank you.

I call on the Deputy Minister for Mental Health and Well-being, Lynne Neagle.

Lynne Neagle AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I'd like to begin by thanking Darren Millar for bringing forward this important topic for debate today. Obesity is a complex condition and it cannot be solved by the Government or by the NHS working in isolation. The evidence suggests that a partnership and whole-system approach is the only way to achieve change.
The Welsh Government's 'Healthy Weight: Healthy Wales' strategy is the first step towards a cross-Government approach to reduce obesity in Wales on a population scale. As a direct result of the Public Health (Wales) Act 2017, passed by the last Senedd, the strategy was launched in October 2019 and is supported by a series of biennial delivery plans. In the development of the strategy, we brought together the best international evidence for change. We're fully committed to utilising all the levers at our disposal, from funding to policy and legislation. Delivery began in earnest in 2019. We set out our ambitious plan to support delivery for 2020-22 and we aimed high. However, the pandemic fundamentally changed the course of our delivery and has more deeply entrenched and worsened pre-existing challenges. Services funding at capacity across Government and key partners were shifted to meet urgent needs caused by COVID-19, meaning that many of the commitments set out in the plan were paused. Our NHS staff were redeployed to areas of urgent need during the midst of the pandemic response, which is where they were needed most.
As we look to be moving past the peak of the omicron wave, health boards are looking to restart existing services whilst continuing with new plans. On 1 March, I will be publishing the 2022-24 delivery plan, which takes this learning from the last two years. This will include a funding commitment of over £13 million over two years. I will be making a statement in Plenary that will highlight the scale and ambition of our plans to achieve tangible and real change. Out of this investment, there is £5.8 million specifically allocated to health boards, which will support the development of equitable person-centred support through the delivery of an all-Wales weight management pathway. This will help to pump prime services alongside wider investment through health boards. The all-Wales weight management pathway is designed to ensure that we achieve parity across Wales. In recognition of the importance of this work, work on it continued in earnest over the course of the pandemic and I was delighted to officially launch it last summer. We know that it will take time to build the required infrastructure as the service evolves, and work is ongoing with local leaders, demonstrating their commitment to progress. A suite of programmes from exercise options to nutrition skills will bring together a life course approach.
Local health boards have planned and developed expansions to access community services at level 2. This will provide a suite of support for individuals to be able to access support at the right time for them. For the first time in Wales, there will be equitable children and families' specialist level 3 services delivered across Wales. We have asked local health boards to prioritise this and advanced plans are in place to enhance service provision. With the support and collaborative working of our primary care professions, there is now a primary care obesity prevention plan to support and drive delivery of the pathway, including making every contact count through person-centred and psychologically informed approaches. And we are building a digital offer at level 1 of the pathway with Public Health Wales. This will be underpinned by a long-term behavioural campaign approach and will provide helpful support and advice for people across Wales. And can I reassure Jenny Rathbone that we are continuing to trial the all-Wales diabetes prevention programme in all health boards across Wales? And I will have more to say about this in my statement on 1 March.
Through our recently published NHS planning frameworks, health boards will be monitored and held accountable to Ministers to ensure that progress continues at pace. Local health boards are also submitting annual monitoring to Welsh Government. We will be supporting Plaid Cymru's amendment today. We're absolutely committed to increasing physical activity opportunities and have allocated £4.5 million funding to invest in community sports facilities, with a further £24 million investment in facilities over the next three years. Health education is essential, and our new Curriculum for Wales includes health and well-being as one of six statutory areas of learning and experience. We are committed to expand physical activity opportunities in schools. We've invested in the winter of well-being and are committed to exploring reform of the school day. Through our 'Healthy Weight' plan, we're also developing a new daily active programme for schools with partners. I'm also keen to explore the use of taxation powers to support a healthy diet, and my officials will scope initial proposals on this matter.
In closing, Dirprwy Lywydd, I look forward to the launch of our 2022-24 'Healthy Weight: Healthy Wales' delivery plan on 1 March, which will ensure that we continue to focus on delivery, recognising the significant efforts that health boards have begun to make. I ask all Members to support our amendment to the motion today. Diolch.

I call on Samuel Kurtz to reply to the debate.

Samuel Kurtz MS: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd, and I'm grateful for the opportunity to close today's debate, following some very detailed and informative contributions from across the Chamber. And can I say how wonderful it is to be back in the Siambr, doing what our constituents have voted us to do?
What has been made clear this afternoon is that obesity is a chronic disease caused by health inequalities, genetic influences and social factors, and, as the Royal College of Physicians has said, this is a problem that must be owned by every Cabinet Member across the whole of Government. As the Member for Ynys Môn rightly pointed out, obesity is a pandemic.
The Welsh Government strategy, launched in 2019, was worryingly vague, despite being well meaning and, as the Deputy Minister has just said, was very ambitious. But, despite this, as many initiatives have been, it was sidelined due to the COVID-19 pandemic. The point has been made that it is vital that we get this back on track with urgency and we'll be keeping a close eye on this.
The Member for Brecon and Radnorshire made it clear in listing the illnesses, ailments and diseases that obesity can exacerbate, and the Member for Newport East highlighted the point of preventative measures to alleviate burden on the NHS. The Member for Cardiff Central made reference to the poor quality of food, and I agree with her, so all I can do is urge her and her constituents to back British, back Welsh, buy locally sourced produce of high quality, including meat and dairy, which is not only high quality, but healthy and environmentally sustainable.
The Member for Newport East also highlighted the fact of lack of facilities of high quality, and the Deputy Minister did make reference to the funding available. But this point was also referenced by Noel Mooney, the Football Association of Wales's chief executive, at the recent cross-party group on sport, which is chaired by my colleague, Laura Anne Jones, who made the correct point in stating that obesity isn't just a cosmetic problem; it's also a health problem as well.
There is no one-size-fits-all approach to tackling obesity, and every individual is different, but there have always been common themes. I hope the Welsh Government take note of our debate today and re-energise their efforts to prioritise tackling the problem of obesity in Wales. Therefore, I urge all Members to show their commitment towards the battle of the bulge and support our motion. Diolch yn fawr.

The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes. I will therefore defer voting until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.

6. Welsh Conservatives Debate: Adverse childhood experiences

The following amendments have been selected: amendments 1, 3 and 4 in the name of Siân Gwenllian, and amendment 2 in the name of Lesley Griffiths. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendment 2 will be deselected.

The next item this afternoon is the second Welsh Conservative debate on adverse childhood experiences. I call on Gareth Davies to move the motion.

Motion NDM7905 Darren Millar
To propose that the Senedd:
1. Recognises the impact that adverse childhood experiences have on health, educational attainment and substance abuse later on in life.
2. Believes that greater focus should be given to preventing child abuse and neglect than dealing with the outcomes.
3. Calls on the Welsh Government to set a target of reducing child abuse, neglect and other adverse childhood experiences by 70 per cent by 2030.

Motion moved.

Gareth Davies AS: Diolch yn fawr iawn, Deputy Llywydd, and I'm honoured to formally move the motion, tabled in the name of Darren Millar, and to open this debate on such an important but difficult topic.
Like many of us here in this Chamber, I pledged my support for the WAVE Trust's target of a 70 per cent reduction in adverse childhood experiences by the end of this decade. During the last Senedd, almost every Member supported the 70/30 pledge. In fact, the only ones who did not support setting targets to tackle child abuse were Welsh Government Ministers, even though the former First Minister, Carwyn Jones, told the Chamber that he supported the work of the WAVE Trust.
We have a real opportunity before us today. We can re-affirm our commitment to the 70/30 target and put Wales on a path to becoming one of the leading nations when it comes to tackling adverse childhood experiences. Adverse childhood experiences, or ACEs, can have such devastating impacts on individuals. They raise the risk of poor physical and mental health, contribute to poorer educational outcomes and lead to shorter life expectancies. We have all seen the stats and believe we understand the issues, but it's not until you speak to victims to hear their story that you can truly grasp the scale of the problems facing many children, young people and adults. The trauma impacts and drives their lives off their tracks.
One such victim shared their harrowing story with me. They were sexually abused at the age of 12. This horrific experience was compounded as the rape resulted in pregnancy and then a miscarriage. The trauma continued throughout her young life. More sexual assaults followed as did two teenage pregnancies. The individual did not finish their formal education and turned to drink and drugs. She ended up addicted to heroin and said she contemplated taking her life more than once.
Throughout this traumatic ordeal, she cried out for help. The only help she received was anti-depressants. When she became pregnant, again, she asked for help with addiction, only to be prescribed Subutex with little regard for the impact this could have had upon her unborn child. All through this multiple-decade ordeal, she reached out to many agencies for help. Over 150 different departments and people interacted with her, yet none offered support without judgment. One of her older children went on to abuse drugs and alcohol.
It was only when she heard about WAVE Trust and learnt about adverse childhood experiences that she took action to turn her life around. Without help, she kicked the heroin habit all by herself and is proud to be two years sober. She did this for her children, but we continue to let her and them down. She has been prescribed trauma therapy, but told there is more than a two-year wait.
She hopes, by sharing her story, she can help prevent anyone else living with the same hell as she has been through. She fell through the cracks, as did her children. She didn’t get help for her child because she lived in the wrong postcode, as she resided in a perceived affluent area that didn't qualify for Flying Start nor Families First.
How can this happen in a modern Wales? I really don’t know, but what I do know is that we have to take action, and that journey starts with us officially adopting the 70/30 target. It won’t magically fix everything, but it will focus minds. Welsh Government have been reluctant to adopt 70/30 because it's both not ambitious enough nor fully in the Government's ambit. This didn’t stop the Scottish Government, and it shouldn’t stop us. And if we are going to put an end to the abuse and trauma impacting children’s lives, then we have to take the first step.
My party pledges to make a 70 per cent reduction in adverse childhood experiences by 2030. Will you?

I have selected the four amendments to the motion. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendment 2 will be deselected. I call on Heledd Fychan to move amendments 1, 3 and 4, tabled in the name of Siân Gwenllian, and to speak to them.

Amendment 1—Siân Gwenllian
Delete all after point 1, and replace with:
Believes that tackling distress during childhood and early intervention must be prioritised in order to give the best start to all children in Wales.
Notes the evidence that there has been an increase in adverse childhood experiences as a result of COVID-19.

Amendment 3—Siân Gwenllian
Add as new point at end of motion:
Calls on the Welsh Government to ensure that there will be clear targets in the adverse childhood experiences plan that will be published this summer to measure its effectiveness.

Amendment 4—Siân Gwenllian
Add as new point at end of motion:
Calls on the Welsh Government to incorporate the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child fully into Welsh law.

Amendments 1, 3 and 4 moved.

Heledd Fychan AS: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I would like to formally move our amendments today, tabled in the name of Siân Gwenllian, and I'd like to thank the Conservatives for bringing this debate forward on such an important issue. The purpose of our amendments is to strengthen the motion so that we see the long-term action that's required to tackle this issue, and I regret the fact that the WAVE Trust isn't specifically named in the original motion. Certainly, we are entirely supportive as a party in terms of having specific targets, but targets alone mean nothing unless we also see real change.
I'd like to focus my contribution particularly on the impact of the pandemic in exacerbating a situation that was already extremely concerning in terms of the level of the impact that we saw on children and young people.

Heledd Fychan AS: During the COVID-19 pandemic, public health measures such as lockdown and social distancing restrictions have been essential to contain the virus and protect the health of the population. However, for some people, this has increased exposure to harm within the home and online, whilst reducing access to care and support from services. In particular, this has placed children and young people at risk, with the potential for increased exposure to adverse childhood experiences and violence that has the potential to have long-term consequences.
There are several ways in which ACEs may have been exacerbated by the social isolation, job loss, school closures and other stressors unleashed by the pandemic. Firstly, the pandemic may have increased intrafamilial adversity, exposing children to increased parental anxieties, especially those associated with job loss, food insecurity and housing insecurity. Such stresses may linger for months or years. Secondly, by amplifying toxic stress, increasing family adversity may impair child brain development, particularly during early years. We've seen trauma through losing loved ones. We've also seen that the pandemic and its response are disproportionately affecting low-income and ethnic minority populations, which are already at increased risk for ACE-impacted chronic conditions like pre-term birth, diabetes, hypertension and chronic lung disease.
The United Nations have projected that there will be over 1 million preventable child deaths globally as a result of the indirect impact of the pandemic on children and young people. These are harrowing statistics. We must act swiftly. We must act now to support our children and young people, and I hope colleagues from across the political divide today can support our amendment so that we work together to support our children and young people.

I call on the Deputy Minister for Social Services, Julie Morgan, to formally move amendment 2, tabled in the name of Lesley Griffiths.

Amendment 2—Lesley Griffiths
Delete point 3.

Amendment 2 moved.

Julie Morgan AC: Formally.

Jack Sargeant AC: As many Members will know, ACEs and a trauma-informed approach are an area and a topic that I'm passionate about. Just last year I wrote a piece co-authored with Charlotte from Platfform, a mental health charity, about the need for a kinder and more trauma-informed approach in all of our public services. I know many Members share this interest with me, and I do often reflect, as the Prif WeinidogMark Drakeforddid yesterday, about the role my dad played in promoting ACEs and the agenda in Wales.
I do welcome the Conservatives bringing this motion forward today, and I thank Darren Millar for that, but I do want to have a wider discussion about the importance of prevention. It's not just about reducing, though; I believe it's about helping people who have been through trauma. And at the heart of trauma lies poverty. You cannot be trauma-informed and support, for instance, the current welfare system, which is so inflexible and traumatising. The punitive nature of this system is the very opposite of trauma-informed. It causes anxiety and it causes desperation.
Deputy Presiding Officer, I heard a statistic from one of my Welsh Labour colleagues this morning. She spoke in a debate, and she stated that 94 per cent of benefit decisions—94 per cent—in her constituency that go to appeal are turned over. That's not a trauma-informed approach, that will not reduce the occurrences of ACEs. But, of course, again today, this is not mentioned in the motion from the Welsh Conservatives because they do support the chaos this causes to households across the nation. It's worth noting, Deputy Presiding Officer, that the motion is silent again on the cost-of-living crisis and the accompanying misery that it will cause many. So, as I said, Deputy Presiding Officer, I do want the wider conversation on ACEs, and it's important that we're having this debate in our Parliament today, but we have to—

Jenny Rathbone AC: Will you take an intervention?

Jack Sargeant AC: Yes, I will.

Jenny Rathbone AC: I just wanted to highlight that the most important thing about the Platfform thing is to move away to a trauma-informed approach, so that we're not saying, 'What's wrong with you?', but saying, 'What happened to you, and how can we help rectify it?' Would you agree with that?

Jack Sargeant AC: I thank the Member, Jenny Rathbone, for that intervention. She's absolutely right; I do agree with Platfform and their campaign to lead a trauma-informed approach, because it's right. When we look at, for example, the welfare system, that's a system that's set up to fail ordinary people. So, I do want that conversation to go on. But I do think we have to have an honest assessment that the link between ACEs and poverty is very clear, so let's not bury our heads in the sand here. I will finish up, Presiding Officer. Let's work together constructively and honestly to bring together a trauma-informed nation in Wales. Diolch.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Again, I thank Gareth for bringing this important debate to the floor of the Senedd today—it's crucially important for children the length and breadth of our country. The crime survey for England and Wales estimated that one in 100 adults—nearly half a million people aged 18 to 74—have experienced physical neglect before the age of 16. To compound this, there were 160,000 offences related to child physical abuse recorded by police in England, Wales and Northern Ireland in 2019-20, and we saw worrying rises, as was outlined earlier, during lockdowns, with the pandemic exacerbating an already worrying problem.
This is just a glimpse into the challenge that we face here in Wales to combat adverse childhood experiences. We have to make it a priority to protect our children and following generations, as we can all see clearly the enormous and devastating effect that trauma, as has been outlined, has on educational performance and life outcomes. Increased adverse childhood experiences are associated with an increase in prevalence of no qualifications and a decreased prevalence of higher education qualifications. When we fail these children in their formative years, we usually set them up to fail for life, something that cannot be allowed to continue. We should be striving to be world leaders in child protection, which in turn would improve our educational outcomes. If we fail, the evidence shows us what can and usually does happen.
The English Department for Education undertook a review into the international evidence on the impact of abuse and neglect on children. The evidence in the review suggested that maltreated children are at greater risk of poor school behaviour, greater risk of being the victims of bullying in school, more likely to have special educational needs, at greater risk of exclusion from school, and more likely to be absent from school. The onus is really now on the Welsh Government to say 'enough is enough' and deal with the root causes of adverse childhood experiences, because if we carry on failing the youngest and most vulnerable, then we fail collectively as a society.
I just want to reaffirm what Gareth said earlier: it's on you, Welsh Minister and Welsh Government, now to reaffirm that commitment to the 70/30 target, because that would be a really good place to start. Thank you.

Jane Dodds AS: As Members of the Senedd, it may be that some of us are living with one or more of the seven ACEs. Sometimes we can cope with them, and sometimes we can't. Having had over 25 years of working in child protection, with many of those years at the front line, I could recount many, many children and young people that I've met where the cycle of abuse and poverty, as Jack has told us about, continues on into the next generation, with little hope and expectation of change. Therefore, thank you for this debate, and I dearly hope we have an opportunity to work together across political parties to change things.
I was pleased yesterday to have been elected chair of the cross-party group on children and families, and we will be putting ACEs and trauma-informed practice on the agenda, so I welcome all interest in this issue. The second issue we discussed was the incorporation of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child into domestic law. I was delighted that the current children's commissioner, Sally Holland, was able to join us at the meeting, and she made a clarion call for us all to adopt the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child. She said that policy initiatives come and go, but the only way we ensure that we make progress for our children is through ensuring legal entitlements and enforceable rights. So, I'm pleased to see the amendment from Plaid Cymru advocating for this position, because a rights-based approach to preventing trauma is absolutely essential.
ACEs are a tragedy. I'd like to thank all of those staff who work at the front line to do their best to change the lives of children and young people, and give huge gratitude to those children and families who strive to change their lives when they are living in desperate and challenging situations. You deserve more. Let this be a recognition that all of us, whatever political party we are part of, see our role in changing what we do to make sure you get the support and help you need. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: A sizeable and worrying contributing factor to the attainment gap is the issue of mental health and well-being in our children, and last year a Cardiff University report found that around 19 per cent of young people in Wales reported very high levels of mental health symptoms before the COVID-19 pandemic. Schools have made clear that they are not adequately equipped to cope with demand for necessary support, despite going above and beyond to implement whole-school approaches to provision. The children's commissioner's 'No Wrong Door' report endorsed a joined-up system where professionals can come together to find out what help they can offer, allowing flexible care to be delivered to meet needs. This is especially pressing given that figures for July 2021 showed that 432 patients out of a total of 720 were waiting four weeks or more for their first appointment for specialist child and adolescent mental health services.
Minister, in light of the pressures exposed again by the pandemic, and for those children with adverse experiences, what steps can you commit to undertake to ensure there is a sufficiently resourced 'no wrong door' approach with tie-in between services across the board as a means of reducing child abuse and adverse experiences by 70 per cent by 2030? Barnardo's say that the central factor impacting mental health in north Wales was a stressful living environment, with an increase in the number of children turning to the use of cannabis as an alternative to addressing their trauma. I have huge numbers of young children in families that have been living in so-called temporary accommodation for as long as 18 months, and that is also causing adverse childhood experiences.
In Conwy, I'm pleased to say that Barnardo's are funded to support families who are affected by substance and alcohol abuse as a means of addressing contributing factors, but that is dealing with the symptoms, isn't it, not the cause. The charity says it is difficult to continue with their experienced provision when staff do not know whether their position will be funded year to year. So, again, can we have some commitment as to how you're going to fund this, and give these organisations some hope? Will you collaborate with your colleague to review what steps can be taken to provide longer term funding commitment to those who are assisting in this area?
Prior to the pandemic, Wales had the highest rate of childhood obesity, with nearly 27 per cent of four to five-year-olds being overweight or obsese. When I was on the Children, Young People and Education Committee, I was part of the inquiry, and it was really frightening, some of the statistics that we witnessed. Minister, I encourage you to support our motion today and to give greater focus to preventing child abuse. Let's all work together to ensure that no child experiences any adverse treatment. Thank you. Diolch.

Joyce Watson AC: I do welcome today's debate, and I'm grateful to organisations like the WAVE Trust that consistently promote and influence progressive policies like the 70/30 campaign. The trust's fundamental message is that most family violence and maltreatment can be prevented by known, economically viable programmes to break damaging family cycles. It also says extensive research highlights the crucial nature of the experience from conception to age 3—in other words, the importance of early years intervention services.
But I feel somewhat gaslit to be lectured on this by the Conservatives, a party that, since 2010, has cut, corroded and hollowed out so many of these services, not least more than 1,000 Sure Start centres in England. By contrast, Welsh Labour Governments have expanded early years support, like Flying Start and Families First. I'm delighted to see a new Flying Start and childcare service being built in Brecon, at the Priory Church in Wales site.
We have softened the blow and ring-fenced where we can, but many, many Welsh families have been beset by years of punitive Tory taxand benefit policies. Analysis by the Equality and Human Rights Commission carried out before the pandemic found that, and I quote, 'the cumulative impact of Tory cuts and policies will have plunged 50,000 more Welsh children into poverty.' And two years ago, the Marmot review, published by the Institute of Health Equity, concluded that, and I quote:
'Austerity will cast a long shadow over the lives of the children born and growing up under its effects.'

Joyce, will you take an intervention?

Joyce Watson AC: In a minute. That is what the Tories have done for childhood experiences in the country. I also want to move on and talk about domestic abuse, but I'll take the intervention.

Gareth Davies AS: Thank you, Joyce Watson, for taking the intervention. Do you think it's appropriate to over-politicise this debate? We're discussing a very sensitive and important subject and a lot of the contributions today have been on the message of working together. Jack Sargeant mentioned it; Laura Anne Jones, Janet Finch-Saunders—

Joyce Watson AC: Okay, this is a speech now.

Gareth Davies AS: Do you think it's appropriate to over-politicise this, given the nature of what we're talking about?

Joyce Watson AC: Well, I'm sorry that you are a bit sensitive to the facts and that you see it only in political terms, but they were facts, and I quoted them.
And I want to move on, to conclude, with a point about domestic abuse. We all know that adverse childhood experience and violence are highly related, but there remains work to be done to ensure that children and young people are central to our ending violence strategy, because we know that in those situations in households, children and young people are victims too and the strategy must reflect that.
But, and I'm finishing my point, I think, I commend the Minister for ending reasonable punishment against children. I was sorry, however, to hear Janet Finch-Saunders actually referring to it and calling for Welsh Government to reduce spending on this today. So, I'm sorry if you find that political, but I'm quoting one of your colleagues, who actually said that less than two hours ago.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: Thank you for bringing this important debate before us today.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: I understand that there are always arguments for and against setting targets, particularly when it comes to something as complex as adverse childhood experiences. The counter argument against targets is that the published data is based on reporting levels and that increased numbers aren't necessarily a bad thing, because it can mean higher levels of awareness and more protection for children. When it comes to children, however, we should do better. Targets can provide direction and motivation for change and make much-needed improvements. There would be a need to provide additional funding to enable effective monitoring, collation and comparison over time. This would, of course, pose challenges, but they are not insurmountable ones.
With regards to the call to set a target of reducing child abuse, neglect and other adverse childhood experiences by 70 per cent by 2030, this was based on guidance from expert advisers. They agreed it was achievable if the right polices and actions are taken by decision makers and those holding the purse strings. It is disappointing to see the Welsh Government delete this point without making any constructive suggestions. I hope the Minister can explain the reasoning for this during this debate.
I'd also like to raise the matter of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child, as we heard from Jane Dodds earlier. Its implementation remains slow and disjointed. There exist deep inequalities that have increased in some areas, including child poverty and mental health. Around a third of Welsh children live in poverty. Child mortality is 70 per cent higher amongst the most deprived groups in Wales. This is a national disgrace, and we are calling for the Welsh Government to bring the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child fully into Welsh law. In Wales, Ministers have a due regard duty to the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child under the Rights of Children and Young Persons (Wales) Measure 2011, but there is no due regard duty on public bodies.
I also want to bring up the high rate of looked-after children in state care in Wales. The rate per 100,000 in Wales is 102, which is much higher than the figure of 64 in England. Multi-agency early intervention programmes to support families must be established. Improving the health and well-being of our children should be a top priority for this Government and this institution that we all belong to. Children are vulnerable and precious. They are also our future, and we must always remember that. Diolch yn fawr.

I call on the Deputy Minister for Social Services, Julie Morgan.

Julie Morgan AC: Diolch. Welsh Ministers are committed to protecting and supporting the health and well-being of all children and young people in Wales. Wales has led the way on tackling adverse childhood experiences. Public Health Wales's findings about their prevalence and impact showed us the personal, social and economic impact that ACEs could have on individuals, their families and society as a whole. However, the findings also showed us that ACEs were not inevitable and didn't always lead to poorer outcomes or distress. The evidence also demonstrated the potential benefits of preventing adverse childhood experiences and informed our decision to prioritise tackling them in 2016, led by our colleague, Carl Sargeant. And we are very grateful for all that he did then.
We have made significant progress. This includes establishing the adverse childhood experience support hub, a centre of expertise supporting organisations to become more trauma informed. And I'm also delighted that we have supported so many valuable community-based projects this year, helping to tackle childhood adversity and trauma, and mitigating their impact. But I absolutely recognise there is more to do, and I recognise that in the contributions that have been made here today.

Darren Millar AC: Minister, will you take an intervention?

Julie Morgan AC: Yes, certainly.

Darren Millar AC: Thank you. I'm very grateful for your taking the intervention. It's just about the adverse childhood experiences hub, which I'm very pleased exists in Wales, and it's good that we know it's getting on with some work in terms of sharing good practice. But it's not actually measuring the adverse childhood experiences in the population as a whole and tracking whether they are reducing or increasing. Isn't it important to measure these things so that you can stand by your claim that we're making good progress on the matter? That's why a target is necessary.

Julie Morgan AC: I had a meeting, actually, yesterday, with the ACEs team, where they described the individual research that they were doing, and it seemed to me that they were measuring in that research what the impact of ACEs was and what progress it was making. So, I think perhaps we should look at that in more detail, because they're definitely doing a lot of research on those lines.But, as I said, I recognise that there is more to do.
Members will be aware that I published a written statement on 21 January, setting out the next steps, including the development of a new ACEs plan. This plan will set out the further actions we will take to tackle ACEs. It will align with our programme for government priorities and the key principles that underline all our policies, such as children's rights, safeguarding, the well-being of future generations, and tackling inequality, racism and discrimination. And I've noted the comments made about poverty here in the Chamber today. It will build on our existing work to tackle abuse and neglect, domestic violence, substance misuse and to support better mental health.
Turning to children's rights, I'm very proud of the work that we are doing in Wales. We were the first UK Government to enshrine children's rights in law—the children's Measure was mentioned here today—and the first Government in the UK to establish a children's commissioner. I therefore welcome and am happy to support the amendment calling for the full incorporation of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child into Welsh law. However, there does remain a question mark over whether we have the necessary devolved legislative powers to do so in the light of the recent Supreme Court judgment on developments in Scotland. So, we are considering the implications of the judgment, and I know that the Scottish Government is also looking at those implications now. But we are certainly happy to support the amendment.
Then, finally, I'd like to address the issue of setting a target for the reduction of ACEs. Our aim must always be to protect all children from harm. Anything less than this is simply not acceptable. A good safeguarding practice relies on consideration of the individual needs and circumstances of every child, and not on targets. And so it's not acceptable to this Government to adopt a target that might seem to suggest it's acceptable to tolerate some children being abused or neglected. For this reason, the Government does not support the setting of any target for reducing adverse childhood experiences. We don't want any children to experience adverse childhood experiences, and we will continue to strive towards giving all children in Wales the best possible start in life and the opportunities to achieve their potential regardless of their individual circumstances. Diolch.

I call on Mark Isherwood to reply to the debate.

Mark Isherwood AC: Diolch. Well, I've listened to the Deputy Minister and thank her for her response, but the bottom line is that this Labour Government appears set to vote against setting a target of reducing child abuse, neglect and other ACEs—adverse childhood experiences—by 70 per cent by 2030, despite this target being launched by the Worldwide Alternatives to Violence Trust, an international charity dedicated to making the world safer by reducing the root causes of violence, including child abuse, neglect and domestic violence. ACEs are potentially traumatic events that occur in childhood, affecting mental health and well-being, education and employment potential.
Home-Start is a voluntary organisation committed to promoting the welfare of families with at least one child aged under 11. Last month, I met Home-Start Flintshire, when I heard that more than 53 per cent of the families they support have four or more ACEs, with the most common being parental separation and mental illness, closely followed by emotional neglect and domestic violence. As they told me, focus has to be on early intervention and prevention, rather than dealing with the consequences when things go wrong, adding that their service is predominantly delivered by trained volunteers whose skills, qualifications and life experiences are carefully matched to a family's needs and even down to family dynamics. They use a strength-based approach, identifying what is going well and building on this. Often, with families classed as hard to reach, this can take some time. They work with the whole family, allowing families to transition through their service and access a variety of interventions. As they say, tackling ACEs is not a quick fix and takes a holistic approach, rather than a prescriptive short parenting programme.
We will support both the Plaid Cymru amendments. In opening the debate, Gareth Davies rightly stated that we have a real opportunity to put Wales on a path to be a world leader in tackling ACEs, but that needs a target to fill in the cracks children are falling through by adopting the 70-30 target. Heledd Fychan supported specific targets accompanied by real change, and highlighted the consequences of children being put at risk of harm in the home during lockdown. Jack Sargeant called for a kinder and more trauma-informed approach. Laura Anne Jones quoted the crime survey for England and Wales—0.5 million people have suffered physical neglect before the age of 16—and said we cannot continue setting children up to fail.
Jane Dodds spoke of her 25 years working in child protection and the cycle of abuse and poverty she witnessed, and called for us to work together across parties to change things and for a rights-based approach to preventing trauma. Janet Finch-Saunders quoted research finding that 19 per cent of young people in Wales reported high levels of mental health symptoms before the pandemic and lockdown, and the increased number of children turning to cannabis instead of being supported to tackle their trauma. Joyce Watson rightly emphasised the importance of early- years intervention services, but then sadly attempted to party politicise this important debate. And Peredur Owen Griffiths was right to say that targets can provide direction and motivation for change, and that child poverty levels in Wales are a national disgrace.
Well, preventing ACEs can help children and adults thrive and potentially stop ACEs from being passed from one generation to the next. I urge Members to support our motion accordingly, and put some teeth in the mouth of the repeatedly stated goals expressed by everybody here. Thank you.

The Llywydd took the Chair.

The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes, there is objection, and so I'll defer voting on the motion until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.

7. Welsh Conservatives Debate: 70th Anniversary of the accession

The next debate therefore is the Welsh Conservatives debate on the seventieth anniversary of the accession, and I call on Darren Millar to move the motion.

Motion NDM7904 Darren Millar
To propose that the Senedd:
1. Extends its warmest congratulations to Her Majesty the Queen on the occasion of the 70th anniversary of her accession to the throne.

Motion moved.

Darren Millar AC: Diolch, Llywydd. I'm delighted to move the motion on the order paper this afternoon to propose that the Senedd should extend its warmest congratulations to Her Majesty the Queen on the occasion of the seventieth anniversary of her accession to the throne, which, of course, we celebrate this weekend. She is a record-breaking monarch; she is the longest reigning monarch in British history. It's absolutely right that all of her Parliaments should recognise this fact and ensure that action is taken to record their thanks and congratulations in their order papers.

Darren Millar AC: It is of note, however, that the Welsh Government chose not to table either a statement or a debate on this important milestone in Her Majesty's reign. They did at the sixtieth, for the Diamond Jubilee. The then First Minister, Carwyn Jones, tabled a Government debate and that was very welcome indeed, but, unfortunately, no such thing has happened this time around, which is why we've used our opposition time, as the Welsh Conservatives—loyal opposition for Her Majesty here in this Parliament.
Now, of course, during the 70 years that Her Majesty has been on the throne, most of that time she was supported by Prince Philip, her consort, the Duke of Edinburgh and, indeed, the Earl of Merioneth, as we must also remind everybody whenever his name pops up in conversation. He, of course, was her 'strength and stay', and his death last year was a great loss not only to Her Majesty the Queen, but also to the nation as a whole.
Over the past seven decades, the Queen has dedicated herself to selfless service to Wales, the UK and the whole of the Commonwealth. She has worked with 14 Prime Ministers—it's pretty remarkable, isn't it—and, of course, four Welsh First Ministers. But she has always risen above the political fray; she's been a steadfast anchor for the nation in times of crisis and in times of trouble, including during this awful period that we've all had to endure with the recent coronavirus pandemic.
Her Majesty is Britain's greatest diplomat and ambassador, representing Welsh and British interests overseas on hundreds of visits and receiving presidents, prime ministers and heads of state from other nations here in the UK. It's very difficult, I think, to underestimate the importance of these visits in fostering international relationships, in helping to overcome divisions and in cementing the strong relationships that Britain enjoys with our allies.
It's no wonder, therefore, that Her Majesty the Queen is greatly admired, not just here in Wales, where the popularity of Her Majesty the Queen is higher than in other UK nations, but across the globe. That admiration has been demonstrated in many ways by people across the world, and I'm reminded of that admiration that people have for Her Majesty the Queen every time I speak to my precious mum, because, you know what, when my mother was born in Dublin in 1952, the year in which Her Majesty the Queen ascended to the throne, her mum and dad—my grandparents—decided to call her Elizabeth after Her Majesty the Queen.
So, the Platinum Jubilee provides an opportunity for all of us to be able to celebrate seven decades of Her Majesty's service to us here in Wales. Of course, to mark the Platinum Jubilee, Her Majesty and the Prince of Wales have launched the Queen's Green Canopy initiative to invite people across the UK to plant a tree, because that will have, of course, a lasting and positive impact on the environment and help to address climate change. Yes, the Queen was planting trees and advocating planting trees a long time before Lee Waters ever did in this Chamber. [Laughter.] She should be on every advert for the tree-planting campaign of this Welsh Government.
And not only that, but special Platinum Jubilee medals will also be awarded to front-line police officers, firefighters, emergency services personnel, prison officers and our precious armed forces—a symbol of gratitude on behalf of the nation for the work that they do. Then there'll be the bank holiday weekend—an extended bank holiday weekend—in June, the focal point for the Platinum Jubilee celebrations. There'll be a garden party at my house, if you want to come along.
Wales holds a very special place in Her Majesty's heart, not just because of her affection—her great affection—for Pembrokeshire corgis, but because she literally carries a piece of Wales everywhere she goes in the form of a Welsh gold wedding ring. Her dedication to Wales has been shown in so many other ways. She's had frequent visits here over the years. Her support and patronage of Welsh organisations, events, charitable organisations, including Cardiff Royal Infirmary, the Friends of Llandaff Cathedral, the Football Association of Wales, the Welsh Rugby Union, the Royal Welsh Agricultural Society—I could go on and on and on and on. But, of course, for us as Members of this Senedd, we should also remind ourselves today of Her Majesty's unwavering support for this institution—the Senedd. She has attended every single opening of the Senedd and National Assembly for Wales, as it was previously known, including of course her recent attendance just a few months ago, at our official opening.
There are two interests in particular that the Queen and I share. The first is a steadfast support for our armed forces and veterans. Her Majesty, along with other members of the royal family, has a long and deep association with the military, including the military here in Wales. She holds the position of Colonel-in-Chief for both the Royal Welsh and the Welsh Guards.
And the second thing that I have in common with Her Majesty the Queen is a strong Christian faith. Those of you who watch virtual Senedd proceedings will have seen that in my office there are two photographs of Her Majesty the Queen. They are there as a reminder to me, and anybody who visits my office, of the example of public service, which is exemplary, that the Queen has set for me and every Member of the Senedd and every other elected representative. It's an example that all of us should aspire to. One of the photographs shows Her Majesty the Queen at one of the official openings of the Senedd—the one that I was first able to attend as a Member of the Senedd, back in 2007—and the other shows Her Majesty following one of the Queen's Christmas Day broadcasts. This one, for me, is particularly important because it emphasises Her Majesty's role as defender of the faith—a title that she has certainly, in my opinion, lived up to, because there is no doubt that Her Majesty's strong Christian faith has been central to her life, and we see many glimpses of this in her Christmas broadcasts. In 2000, the Queen said this:
'For me the teachings of Christ and my own personal accountability before God provide a framework in which I try to lead my life. I, like so many of you, have drawn great comfort in difficult times from Christ's words and example.'
Throughout her long reign, it has been underpinned by a deeply rooted, personal Christian faith. In 2011, she said this in her Christmas broadcast:
'Although we are capable of great acts of kindness, history teaches us that we sometimes need saving from ourselves—from our recklessness or our greed. God sent into the world a unique person—neither a philosopher nor a general (important though they are)—but a Saviour, with the power to forgive.'
Amazing words. The Queen has also been at the forefront of promoting dialogue and understanding between different faiths throughout her reign. In 2014, in her Christmas broadcast, she said this:
'the life of Jesus Christ, the Prince of Peace, whose birth we celebrate today, is an inspiration and an anchor in my life. A role-model of reconciliation and forgiveness, he stretched out his hands in love, acceptance and healing. Christ's example has taught me to seek to respect and value all people of whatever faith or none.'
The Queen is an amazing example. She has robustly defended her Christian faith while promoting tolerance and understanding of others, and she lives by the moral code that she preaches. So, in closing, I want to say this. For her 70 years on the throne, for her service to Wales, the UK and the Commonwealth, and for her role as defender of the faith, I say this: God save the Queen, long live the Queen, and congratulations, Your Majesty.

Rhianon Passmore AC: On behalf of the people and communities of Islwyn, I want to place on record our appreciation of the loyal and dedicated public servant that Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II has been and remains today. Nobody, irrespective of whatever position taken on the monarchy, would not have been seriously moved, as was I, by the sight last year of Her Majesty sat alone in the chapel at Windsor at the funeral of her husband. It was yet a further symbol, if one were needed, of this iconic woman who has truly lived up to her oath at her coronation to serve her people.
As the Labour representative on the Senedd Commonwealth Parliamentary Association, I have also seen first-hand and heard for myself how admired and respected the Queen is across the Commonwealth and how she strengthens, personally, our international reputation. There is no doubt that there are indeed very strong and differing views on the institution of monarchy across this Chamber, as there are in Islwyn and as there are across the Commonwealth, and how she strengthens that personal reputation for us, and we saw that recently when Barbados became a republic, and we note the differing Scandinavian models, but this debate, though, is not the time or the place.
So, however, in the genuine spirit within which I feel this debate has been laid, I want to say 'thank you' to our Queen. Whatever our perspective on the need or otherwise for a modern monarchy, let us all conjoin around the fact that there are and there remains something quite profound and stabilising that she has been our Queen throughout the most difficult times for British history and that she has reigned throughout the lives of every single Member of this Senedd. Through the changing decades and times, Queen Elizabeth II has been a constant star in an ever-changing and often perplexing world. Let the Queen's dedication to public service be her crown in perpetuity and her commitment to public duty be an inspiration to us all.
And to conclude, Llywydd, when the sixth Senedd was formally opened, I enjoyed listening to Her Majesty and I was struck by her truly genuine laughter at my recounting a tale of Alun Davies, which she recalled. And as a proud feminist, there is something strong to admire in this woman, a real strength, and real substance, where other so-called leading figures dissolve in front of our eyes, for she has been a leading figure, our representative and our Queen, and she has been the leading lady on that world stage for the last seven decades. We have been fortunate and I also wish Her Majesty many more years to reign over us. God bless you, Your Majesty, and thank you.

Natasha Asghar AS: It gives me great pleasure to add my voice today to the tributes to Her Majesty the Queen to mark the seventieth anniversary of her accession to the throne. A Platinum Jubilee is a unique event in British history, and we should take time to reflect on the Queen's long reign and how things have changed. Most of us in this Chamber weren't even around in 1952; I certainly wasn't, and there's no denying that the world was a much different place back then. Winston Churchill was Prime Minister, a gallon of petrol cost 22p in today's money, tea rationing came to an end, and Agatha Christie's play The Mousetrap opened in the west end, which like Her Majesty is still going strong today, I'm glad to say.
In 1952, both my parents had been born respectively in India and also in Pakistan. They were both the children of my paternal grandfather being in the Indian air force and my maternal grandfather being in the Pakistani air force, and their love, dedication and admiration for the Queen has certainly trickled down to even myself. Then, post partition in 1952, both my parents were schoolchildren, as I mentioned, but one of the greatest achievements of the Queen's reign has been the transformation of the empire to the Commonwealth.
Today, the Commonwealth is made of 53 independent countries that work together to pursue common goals that promote development, democracy and peace. With a combined population of 2.4 billion, the Commonwealth spans the globe and includes both advanced economies and developing countries. It encompasses Africa, Asia, the Caribbean and Americas, Europe and the Pacific. Its strength lies in its shared values, diversity and commitment to racial equality. This has at times caused stresses in the organisation, with countries leaving or having been expelled, however, today, the Commonwealth remains united as a force for promoting human rights, racial equality and democracy in the world.
The Queen once said, and I quote:
'It has always been easy to hate and destroy. To build and to cherish is much more difficult.'
And:
'In remembering the appalling suffering of war on both sides, we recognise how precious is the peace we have built'.
The success of the Commonwealth is in large part due to the Queen, who as head is widely loved, admired and respected by all. We should not be surprised by this. On her twenty-first birthday in 1947, the then Princess Elizabeth said:
'I declare before you all that my whole life whether it be long or short shall be devoted to your service and the service of our great imperial family to which we all belong.'
And she certainly has delivered on that promise. For 70 years, the Queen has served this country and the Commonwealth with dedication and loyalty. She has been and remains a single fixed point in a fast-changing world, as 'constant as the northern star', as Shakespeare could have put it. The Queen's accession 70 years ago was the time of death of her beloved father and, last year, she lost her husband, Prince Philip, who was by her side for the whole of her reign, supporting and encouraging her all the way. Some years ago, the Queen did say,
'The world is not the most pleasant place. Eventually your parents leave you and nobody is going to go out of their way to protect you unconditionally. You need to learn to stand up for yourself and what you believe'.
Over the last 70 years, with Prince Philip's advice and guidance, the Queen has demonstrated the monarchy's ability to adapt to modern times. She is the most widely travelled head of state this country's ever had. At the time of Queen Victoria's Diamond Jubilee, the monarch was a remote figure seen rarely by her people. Today, the Queen has estimated to have met 4 million people in person. As my esteemed colleague Darren Millar did state, she has met over 14 UK Prime Ministers, exercising her statutory duties to be consulted, to encourage and to warn through her regular audiences, giving them the benefit of her unmatched experience. She has met every President of the United States from Truman to Biden, except one. In 70 years, she hasn't put a foot wrong, never complaining and never explaining. She remains at the heart of the nation, doing her duty and serving her country, and, Presiding Officer, I hope and pray that she continues to do so for many more years to come. Thank you.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: I welcome this debate today, called by Darren Millar, to mark the seventieth anniversary of the accession. It's a simple one-line motion, and sometimes the simplest are the most effective. The motion reads:
'To propose that the Senedd:'—
our Senedd—
'Extends its warmest congratulations to Her Majesty the Queen on the occasion of the 70th anniversary of her accession to the throne.'
And I would suggest, respectfully, that this is not an occasion to debate the merits or otherwise of the monarchy or to posit alternatives, or for fashionable, modern cynicism of all institutions in public life. Those are for another time and another place. Today's debate is simply to note the remarkable service of an individual who, for seventy years, has put her individual role and a mission of public service above all else, and, indeed, her sacrifice much else to that singular mission of being the constitutional head of the United Kingdom. That, of itself, by itself, is worthy of our noting.
We all here have accepted a role in the glare of public life, but we volunteered. In doing so, we made a conscious choice, knowing that if it became too much for ourselves or our families, we could also make the choice, difficult as it may be, to step back out of the limelight and pursue a different path—that is, if the electorate haven't made that choice for us in the meantime. But, I think what most people would accept is that for a young Princess Elizabeth of York, born into the royal family, there was subsequently little choice, faced with what she would have perceived as a duty—a duty to serve her country often in the most difficult times imaginable for that country, and often difficult for her personally and very publicly as a daughter, a motherand so so.
It's not difficult to see why the respect from the wider public has grown, because of some of the characteristics she has come to demonstrate at the most difficult of times. These characteristics are not unique to her, and, in her quiet private moments, she might also acknowledge that, like all of us, she may have fallen short now and then in small ways. But they are also some of the characteristics we would like to see in ourselves more consistently, and in all our public leaders too, especially those in the highest offices of state. And I'll mention two of those characteristics in particular, because there's merit in doing so as we look back on 70 years of Queen Elizabeth's role as head of state, and we also look now to current tempestuous times in public life. Those two characteristics are selflessness and the focus on service to others. And also leadership by example, and setting the standards in public life that really do matter to our democracy and our respect for the way we're governed and for who governs us.
When we look to our national figures in public life at any moment in time, at any point in history, we realise that even the best of them, the best of us, have feet of clay. But we expect—in fact, we demand—that to have respect from the public, that they try and live up to these ideals of selflessness and leadership by example. The very privilege of high position brings with it the duty to respect that position, not to abuse that position, and to treat the public with respect too. And if they fail to maintain these characteristics consistently, or fail to accept when they've stumbled and fallen short, or, worse, they try to fool the public, then the public will rightly be unforgiving; they are never fools. And we've seen this throughout history and we'll no doubt see it again.
So, I simply close by noting that Queen Elizabeth II has served seven long decades in the most prominent position in public life in the UK, with the attention of not just the public on this little island off the north-west shores of the European continent, but of public, press andcommentariat from the world upon her every move and every utterance. She has witnessed and been often part, one step removed as the constitutional head of state though never indifferent, of some of the most serious constitutional, diplomatic, political and personal crises imaginable and military conflict and civil strike here and far overseas, and yet, still, she commands the respect of the overwhelming majority of the citizens—and I use that term of 'citizens' advisedly in a constitutional monarchy—of these isles. I suggest that it's not least because, whilst we all have those feet of clay, those two enduring characteristics of selflessness and leadership and a willingness to acknowledge when things go wrong have meant that the respect for the Queen herself has grown and grown, as every year and as every decade have passed. Perhaps there are lessons for all of us there and for all our leaders in public life who, in elected roles, hope to maintain their positions of privilege and of public service. We all congratulate Her Majesty the Queen, Queen Elizabeth II, on the occasion of the seventieth anniversary of her accession to the throne.

Sam Rowlands MS: May I say 'thank you' to my colleague Darren Millar for submitting this royally important debate this afternoon? As all Members know, Her Majesty the Queen reaches the seventieth anniversary of her accession to the throne on 6 February, and as our Welsh Conservative motion states, I'd like to certainly be associated in extending our warmest congratulations to Her Majesty the Queen on what is an incredible achievement.
Firstly, Llywydd, I'd like to just hark back to a few memories of when the Queen was in my community back in 2002, when I was a lot younger, and I recall Her Majesty the Queen visiting Colwyn Bay and actually coming along to visit the school that I was attending at the time. I remember rightly having this strange moment when, actually, she was at the running track at the school and I half expected her to run around and do the 400m, but she was actually driven around the running track that day. But what struck me, and what I observed, even as a teenager, was the way that Her Majesty's presence united people from all areas, all backgrounds, all ages, levels of education, attainment, all creeds, races and ages—a uniting figure, a demonstration of the exceptionally high level at which Her Majesty conducted and continues to conduct herself.
Secondly, and in relation to this, we must pay credit, as has already been outlined by Members here today, to the example of service and duty that Her Majesty has set out for us, as an amazing example for all people, throughout her 70 years on the throne. The fact that Her Majesty continues to, day in and day out, carry out her role with respect and dignity is an example that we can all look to. And this example has been outlined through all of her fantastic work—[Interruption.] Sorry, you want me to take an intervention. Certainly.

Jack Sargeant AC: I thank the Member, Sam Rowlands. You mentioned, Sam, the public service and you witnessing the Queen at the school. I witnessed the Queen opening Deeside College's centre for engineering excellence in 2003 and I went on to study an apprenticeship there. So, on behalf of north Wales and my residents in Alyn and Deeside, will you join me in congratulating the Queen in everything that she does and, certainly, highlight that role model she is to all of our public servants across the United Kingdom and the world?

Sam Rowlands MS: Absolutely. Mr Sargeant makes a really important point, especially in relation to her love for education as well and seeing others aspire and do well in life.
The fantastic work that she has carried out in working, and it was mentioned earlier, with around 14 different Prime Ministers—I'm sure that it's difficult enough working with one at times, but having 14—through her 70 years, conducting over 2,000 royal engagements and having been a patron and president of 600 charities, all of this, of course, as the fourth longest reigning monarch of all time—. She has every right to be well respected and hugely supported across the United Kingdom, across the Commonwealth, and especially here in Wales.
And, at this point, Llywydd, I think it's also important for us to remind ourselves of the position that Her Majesty has in our role as Members, and I'm proud of the words that I used, along with many Members here, when sworn in to the Senedd less than 12 months ago, and the words I used were:
'I...swear that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth, her heirs and successors, according to law. So help me God.'
These are ultimately the words that we must continue to remember when carrying out our role in serving our constituents. And to end my contribution, Llywydd, and in celebration of this incredible achievement, I'd like to read out the following words that unite many people from across all corners of the United Kingdom:
'God save our gracious Queen / Long live our noble Queen / God save the Queen / Send her victorious / Happy and glorious / Long to reign over us / God save the Queen.'

I thought you were going to sing there. I might have joined in—you never know. Jane Dodds.

Jane Dodds AS: Diolch, Llywydd. Firstly, I'd like to thank Darren Millar for tabling this motion, and I make a very brief contribution because, with others, I, too, would like to extend my congratulations to Her Majesty the Queen on the seventieth anniversary of her accession to the throne. Her Majesty has remained a constant reminder of public service throughout my life and has served with dedication, honour and dignity. She has shown herself to be a woman of strength and resilience and of strong Christian faith, which has been a source of inspiration to me as a Christian and, as we have heard, to others as well. She has shown the importance of women, as well, in not only our country but across our world. It was for me a great privilege to get to meet her for the first time at the opening of the sixth Senedd last October. And I finally say, 'Best wishes to you, Your Majesty. I extend my congratulations on this significant milestone'.

Jane Dodds AS: Thank you very much, Queen Elizabeth.

Janet Finch-Saunders.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Diolch, Llywydd, and I do hope you and all Members will join me in saying, 'Congratulations, indeed, Your Majesty'. The Queen has a central and pivotal role in our own constitution. Under the doctrine of separation of powers, the governance of the state is divided into three branches, each with separate and independent powers and responsibilities. As you'll know, for Wales, the executive comprises the Crown and two Governments, and we must never forget that the Queen does play a constitutional role in opening and dissolving Parliament—indeed, our Senedd Cymru, Welsh Parliament. In fact, the Queen has opened Parliament all but twice during her own reign—the exceptions being in 1959 and 1963, when she was herself with child. It has been such an honour to have met Her Majesty on the three occasions of our royal openings here and to speak with her and it was an honour again to see her officially opening the sixth Senedd not too long ago.
We must not forget that all Acts emanating from this Parliament are approved by her, meaning that the Crown's indirect impact on Wales is far greater than we could ever quantify. In Aberconwy, we have had the privilege of Her Majesty's presence in attending the National Eisteddfod in Llandudno in 1963, opening the Conwy tunnel, alongside the late and very great Wyn Roberts, Lord Roberts of Conwy, and in visiting Venue Cymru in 2010. And I remember her well at the queen of Welsh resorts, Llandudno, as part of the Silver Jubilee tour in 1977. The sun was shining and the promenade full to the brim with locals and visitors, each wanting to catch a glimpse of the royal couple. Local enthusiasm for Her Majesty is unwavering. In fact, our respect and our love for her has rightly grown. She is a constant during all times and has worked with Prime Ministers of all colours and has served us with loyalty, dignity and absolute commitment at all times. In fact, I think it was Harold Macmillan who summed it up well when he called the Queen
'a great support, because she is the one person you can talk to.'
Alongside assisting Prime Ministers, the Queen is royal patron or president of some 600 charities, and she carries out these responsibilities with great enthusiasm. Fourteen of those are here in Wales and include the golf union of Wales, the Royal Welsh Agricultural Society, the Football Association of Wales, and Fields in Trust, an organisation that seeks to protect and improve playing fields and other recreational spaces in the UK. More than ever before, our outdoor environment and climate change emergency are at the forefront of all our minds. As Her Majesty stated during COP 26,
'None of us underestimates the challenges ahead: but history has shown that when nations come together in common cause, there is always room for hope. Working side by side, we have the ability to solve the most insurmountable problems and to triumph over the greatest of adversities.'
I think it most appropriate today that we take inspiration from that message of co-operation and the pride that the royal family have shown in encouraging people to protect our fragile planet. I encourage all Members to write to their community and town councils in their constituencies and to inspire participation in the Queen's Green Canopy. I do not doubt that we will see street parties galore during the four-day bank holiday, but the trees that we plant will live on for centuries to come. The Queen's contribution to this country, the Commonwealth and the world will live on for centuries also, be that in the laws passed, the trees planted, the many hearts touched or the nations supported. I sincerely hope that Her Majesty enjoys a much blessed event to celebrate her 70 glorious years on the throne, and I pray for that for many years to come. Llywydd, I would ask that a letter be sent to our Queen on behalf of the Members of the Senedd in order to extend our sincere and grateful congratulations. Thank you, diolch, and long live the Queen.

I now call on the Council General and Minister for the Constitution to contribute to the debate. Mick Antoniw.

Mick Antoniw AC: Thank you, Llywydd. The Queen's accession will engender mixed emotions for Her Majesty, because it also marks the death of her father. According to reports, she will mark the occasion quietly, and that is natural. Also, this will be her first year without the man who provided such support to her over the years, after the death of the Duke of Edinburgh last year. We all remember the striking images of Her Majesty sitting alone, wearing a mask, at the funeral of her late husband. At that time, she sat in unity with all of those people who had lost loved ones during the pandemic. Many of them had had to grieve alone. She was an example to everyone of dignity and selflessness.

Mick Antoniw AC: Llywydd, the Government will be tabling its own motion, as we did 10 years ago at the time of the Jubilee celebrations, in the summer. However, it would be appropriate to mark the forthcoming occasion with some reflection. On her twenty-first birthday, the Queen dedicated her life to the service of the Commonwealth with these words:
'I declare before you all that my whole life whether it be long or short shall be devoted to your service'.
There can be no doubt that Her Majesty has remained steadfast to the promise she made so many years ago.
Llywydd, in this Senedd, and in Wales, we represent many diverse views and opinions. That is democracy. However, I believe that across Wales, the Queen has attained the utmost respect for her personal dedication to public service and the highest standards in public life. For 70 years, she has been an exemplar in the exercise of that duty, working tirelessly in the interests of the nations of the UK and the people of the Commonwealth, and that is why she holds such a special place in the hearts of so many Welsh people.
Here in the Senedd, we all recently had the pleasure of the Queen's presence for the opening of our sixth parliamentary session. The excitement and pride of those who had been involved is an indication of the high regard in which Her Majesty is held by many, an excitement mirrored on the face of the Queen, who seemed to be as interested in the contributions to our national and civic life of those beyond this Chamber as she is in the work that goes on inside it. The people of Wales will have the opportunity to mark the Queen's Jubilee through many events and celebrations that are planned. On behalf of the Government, I offer our congratulations on the occasion of her accession, and for her 70 years of dedication and service. Diolch, Llywydd.

I now call on James Evans to reply to the debate.

James Evans MS: Diolch, Llywydd. It's an honour to close this debate today. I want to pay tribute to our longest serving monarch, Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II. Her life and her reign can be summed up in a couple of words: duty, and, as Huw Irranca-Davies has said, a remarkable service to our country. At the age of 19, Her Majesty enlisted during world war two to serve in the women's Auxiliary Territorial Service, and this was just the beginning of a life of commitment to this country and to its people. This was epitomised in Her Majesty's famous speech in Cape Town, as many have said today, where she stated:
'I declare before you all that my whole life whether it be long or short shall be devoted to your service'.
She has done that admirably throughout her reign.As Darren Millar has said, Her Majesty the Queen is the longest serving monarch in British history. Her Majesty has remained a stable influence and a calming presence over the country, and she has seen 14 Prime Ministers and four First Ministers, so I must say she has got an abundance of patience.
Her Majesty the Queen has modernised the monarchy alongside her beloved late husband, His Royal Highness the Duke of Edinburgh, and they turned it into the much-loved institution that it is today, with a global reach promoting British interests around the world, promoting peace, and doing as Sam Rowlands quite rightly said, uniting people together to better the world. Her Majesty's dedication and sense of duty can be seen clearly through her dedication to her countless charities, and she is regarded as doing more than any other monarch in history to support charities. She has been patron and president to over 600 charities during her reign.
It's not just Her Majesty's dedication to the country that we should all be in awe of. Her Majesty remained a great champion of her great work in the Commonwealth, over the years working to rebuild relationships and keep its members together since 1952, as Rhianon Passmore and Natasha Asghar mentioned. When Her Majesty was crowned, the Commonwealth had eight member states. Today, there are 54, and the Queen has overseen a process that has practically changed what it was before and transformed it into a voluntary association of sovereign nations working hand in hand together to promote world peace.
Quite simply, Members, Her Majesty has been steadfast as the head of state and as our monarch, and we and this whole nation will be forever in a debt. I think I speak for the whole Chamber here today when I say, 'God save the Queen'.

The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? No. That motion is therefore agreed, and as Janet Finch-Saunders suggested, I will write to congratulate Her Majesty on 70 years of service, as suggested in the motion.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

8. Plaid Cymru Debate: Stalking

The following amendments have been selected: amendments 1, 2 and 3 in the name of Darren Millar.

The next item is the Plaid Cymru debate on stalking, and I call on Heledd Fychan to move the motion.

Motion NDM7906 Siân Gwenllian
To propose that the Senedd:
1. Regrets the increases in violence and harassment against women, noting that stalking offences reported to police increased by 30 per cent in Wales between 2020 and 2021.
2. Calls on the Welsh Government to:
a) use the new curriculum and other resources to foster a culture that prevents the occurrence of stalking in the first place;
b) produce guidance for planning bodies that ensures women’s safety is considered in the design of public spaces;
c) work with Police and Crime Commissioners to improve police handling of stalking, ensuring police are trained to handle the real nature of stalking and that stalking protection orders are being utilised;
d) provides specialist support for survivors of stalking;
e) commit to pursuing the devolution of powers over policing and justice to Wales so that it can fully tackle the crime of stalking and make misogyny a hate crime in Wales.

Motion moved.

Heledd Fychan AS: Thank you, Llywydd. Stalking is a pattern of unwanted, persistent, obsessive and intrusive behaviours by one person towards another person, causing fear of violence and distress to the person being targeted. It's easy to think of stalking as something that only happens to public figures or celebrities, such as popstars, but the reality today in the United Kingdom is that one in five women and one in 10 men will be stalked at some point in their lives. In fact, it's estimated that 1.5 million people are stalked in England and Wales every year. However,the actual numbers are likely to exceed this figure for a number of reasons, including: a lack of awareness about what stalking is; complexities regarding the individual's relationship with the offender; how stalking behaviour usually develops over time; fears for personal safety; distrust of the police and criminal justice system; previous traumatic experiences; and an unsatisfactory response by police when someone complains.
It is also alarming that, on average, it takes 100 cases of unwanted behaviours by a stalker before a person contacts the police about the matter. This is supported by research carried out by the Suzy Lamplugh Trust, which found that nearly two thirds of the stalking survivors to whom they had spoken since the start of the pandemic had not reported the matter to the police. We have seen a marked increase in stalking over the past decade, and these cases have also increased significantly over the period of the pandemic. Indeed in Wales, if you compare the figures for April to June 2020 to the figures for April to June 2021, there has been an increase of 30 per cent in the number of instances of stalking and harassment that have been recorded. In Dyfed-Powys, there was an increase of 102 per cent, an increase of 23 per cent in north Wales and 24 per cent in south Wales. In Gwent, there was a very small decrease of 1 per cent.

The Deputy Presiding Officer took the Chair.

Heledd Fychan AS: In 2020, stalking support services and police forces recorded a surge in stalkers turning to online tactics to harass individuals during lockdowns, particularly in the first four weeks of the first lockdown, as people were like sitting ducks stuck in their homes. In fact, the national stalking advocacy service, Paladin, saw almost a 50 per cent increase in stalking referrals when lockdowns began. For those who were being stalked prior to the start of lockdown, nearly half of respondents to a survey confirmed an increase in online behaviours, and a third saw a rise in offline behaviours. Many respondents suggested that their stalker being isolated and bored in lockdown left them with nothing else to think about apart from their obsession. At the same time, arrests have been unable to keep up with the number of offences, as arrests only grew at half the rate of the rise in offences between 2019 and 2020.
Almost half of stalkers, when making a threat, will act upon it, especially when they are known to the individual they're stalking. Indeed, again the Suzy Lamplugh Trust have reported that in nine out of 10 femicides analysed over a three-year period, the killer displayed behaviours associated with stalking. We must act on stalking, not only for the huge impact it has on survivors, but for the threat it poses to life and the impact on the families and friends of those murdered. There have been too many deaths and too little action, discussion and education around this. We owe it to every victim to act on this serious matter.

I have selected the three amendments to the motion, and I call on Mark Isherwood to move amendments 1, 2 and 3, tabled in the name of Darren Millar.

Amendment 1—Darren Millar
Add as new point after point 1 and renumber accordingly:
Welcomes both the Stalking Protection Act 2019 and the amendment to the Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Bill to make misogyny a hate crime in England and Wales.

Amendment 2—Darren Millar
In point 2(c), after 'work with' insert 'police forces and'.

Amendment 3—Darren Millar
In point 2, delete sub-point (e) and replace with:
'ensure that perpetrator programmes are available across Wales'.

Amendments 1, 2 and 3 moved.

Mark Isherwood AC: Diolch. I move amendments 1 to 3, whilst also acknowledging that there is much of merit in the original motion. The increase in stalking offences is more than a matter of regret. The new curriculum can and must foster a culture that prevents the occurrence of stalking in the first place. New guidance for planning bodies should ensure that the safety of women and others at risk, including disabled people, is considered in the design of public spaces. Providers of specialist support for survivors of stalking must also be sustainably resourced, and included in the design and delivery of related services.
Our amendment 2, calling on the Welsh Government to work with both police forces and police and crime commissioners to improve police handling of stalking, is essentially a technical amendment, which Members should therefore support. While the role of commissioner is to hold chief constables and their police force to account, chief constables and their police forces are responsible for the operational delivery of policing services.
Office for National Statistics figures published last March found that although most crime figures dropped in Wales and England during 2020, recorded stalking and harassment offences had increased by 20 per cent during the coronavirus lockdown, with the figure rising to 31 per cent as restrictions had eased in the summer of 2020. The anti-stalking charity Paladin said most victims were reporting being stalked via social media, messaging apps and e-mail, but physical stalking was also happening despite the lockdown. Paladin had also previously highlighted the lack of perpetrator programmes for stalkers. Hence our amendment 3 calls on the Welsh Government to ensure that perpetrator programmes are available across Wales.
Last December, I noted here that I was one of the three party spokespeople who took the Welsh Government to the line over the passage of the Violence Against Women, Domestic Abuse and Sexual Violence (Wales) Act 2015, securing Welsh Government pledges in several areas, including accredited perpetrator programmes, to change the attitudes, behaviour and belief of perpetrators. As I said, during the passage of the Act, I moved amendments calling for the national strategy to include provision of at least one perpetrator programme. As Relate Cymru had told committee, 90 per cent of the partners they questioned sometime after the end of their programme said that there had been a complete stop in violence and intimidation by their partner. The Minister responded then that he did not consider my amendment appropriate, but had jointly funded research to help inform future responses to perpetrators. However, as I said in December, the only mention of perpetrators in the latest violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence national advisers annual plan refers to exploring a blueprint for the whole system that aims, amongst other things, to hold perpetrators accountable.
The Suzy Lamplugh Trust have raised concern that a lot of victims tend to drop the charges because they find it too emotionally challenging, meaning the actual number of stalking victims could be much higher than official data suggests. Stalking is increasingly being recognised as a form of domestic abuse within the criminal justice system, a Crown Prosecution Service analysis finding the majority of offences are committed by ex-partners. Although a record 2,288 charges were brought in 2019-20, more than double the figure five years previously, the percentage of reported cases charged fell from 23 per cent in the year ending March 2016 to just 11 per cent in the year ending March 2020. Speaking last summer, the senior policy and campaigns officer for the Suzy Lamplugh Trust said:
'What is really needed is in depth specialists and regular training for police officers. We need to make sure that when somebody reports stalking…the police officer responding to the incident understands what stalking is.'
Unfortunately, Plaid Cymru's predictable call for the devolution of powers at the end of their motion distracts from a highly important debate and gives the false impression that our Westminster colleagues are not also already switched on to these matters. Hence our amendment 1, which calls on the Senedd to welcome the Stalking Protection Act 2019, introduced by then Conservative MP Sarah Wollaston and Conservative peer Baroness Bertin, and the Lords vote in favour of an amendment to the Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Bill to make misogyny a hate crime in Wales and England, led by Conservative Baroness Newlove. The Minister for Social Justice's statement in her letter copied to Members last Friday that it is likely that amendments agreed in the Lords will be overturned and further amendments made, only reinforces the importance of this Parliament sending a united message of support for making misogyny a hate crime. Thank you.

Joyce Watson AC: I thank Plaid Cymru for bringing in this debate today, as stalking, as we've heard, has a significant and lasting effect on the lives of victims, survivors and their families. The impact on the victims' mental health is often profound. A survey carried out by the Suzy Lamplugh Trust in 2020 found that, of those who responded to the survey, 94 per cent said that stalking had indeed impacted their mental health. It is predominantly a gendered crime, and we've already heard today that one in five women are being targeted compared to one in 10 men. People living with disabilities and long-term health problems are also disproportionately affected.
In 2019, the Stalking Protection Act was passed. It applies to both England and Wales. A crucial part of the Act is the civil stalking protection order. This allows the police to apply to the magistrates' court, who can then impose restrictions and positive requirements on the perpetrator. Crucially, breaching the terms of the stalking protection order is a criminal offence. Any breach of the conditions gives the police the power to arrest the perpetrator. They can also be used to protect victims of stalking when a criminal case is being built. Alarmingly, a BBC report found that only two stalking prevention orders had been granted in Wales between 2020 and March 2021, despite 3,000 stalking offences being reported to the police during that period.
The Suzy Lamplugh Trust 'Unmasking Stalking' report in 2021 found that only 9 per cent of victims whose experience of stalking started after the first lockdown had a stalking prevention order in place. Having legislation, of course, is one thing, but if it's not being used to protect victims as intended, then it has to raise serious concerns. I'm keen to understand what discussions Welsh Government have had with the relevant organisations, such as police and the wider criminal justice system, as to why the number of stalking prevention orders granted during this time is so low. I wonder if it's a matter of police, CPS and magistrate training and, if it is, how that's being addressed. I also welcome today the £400,000 investment in the 30 new facilities that will allow courts to act by video-link, because we've already heard that what will prevent stalking victims from going to court is the very thought of having to face the perpetrator in the same room. So, again, in finishing, I would like to say I'm really, really pleased to take part in this debate and really pleased that it was tabled.

Delyth Jewell AC: Stalking is a crime that shatters lives. It's a cumulative dread that builds in the mind, a mass of moments of infringements on a survivor's psyche and sanity, a campaign of quiet terror that pulls a person apart piece by piece. I've worked with a number of survivors of stalking, and the mental anguish that they're put through is debilitating. Stalkers blow families apart, destroy relationships, make you feel unable to walk down the street or even open your laptop without their presence making you feel diminished or under threat. I've worked with women whose stalkers installed spyware and listening devices in their homes, who suffered PTSD, women whose stalkers turned up at their workplace, who had their keys in order to copy them, women who received death threats, one woman who received a text from her stalker with a picture of a noose with the words, 'Not long now, my flower.' And, worst of all, women whose families were left to tell their stories for them because they had been murdered by their stalkers.
I heard these testimonies, Dirprwy Lywydd, when I was part of a campaign in Westminster between 2010 and 2012 that resulted in new stalking laws being introduced. Working with the late, great Harry Fletcher, who is so missed, we set up an inquiry chaired by Elfyn Llwyd MP. We took evidence from practitioners, legal experts and, yes, survivors and families, about how the system was failing victims. And thanks in large part to the testimony of those brilliant women, we persuaded the UK Government to introduce new laws, announced on International Women's Day 2012, only a month after we published our report. The new clauses were subsequently passed within, I think, a record-breaking 11 days by both Houses of Parliament. Yet, Dirprwy Lywydd, it infuriates and disheartens me that, 10 years later, we need to have this debate—and we do—because police forces are not receiving the right training and prosecution rates are stubbornly low. The stalking laws, so long fought for, are not being used and women are still being failed by the justice system. Our motion calls for the Government and police and crime commissioners to ensure police forces understand the real nature of stalking and that mitigations available to them are used.
As we've heard, between January 2020 and March 2021, only two full stalking protection Orders were granted in Wales, despite 3,000 stalking offences being reported to the police—3,000. And I mention the real nature of stalking because, too often, it is played down or missed. The national stalking helpline found that around 50 per cent of survivors were unsatisfied with the police response to their case. In a quarter of cases, it was because the police didn't recognise the pattern of behaviour as stalking.
With stalking, Dirprwy Lywydd, it is the pattern that creates the crime. Individual incidents taken alone will seem utterly inconsequential, but together they amass menace, and stalking is defined in law in a very particular way in terms of the impact the behaviour has on a victim—behaviours that cause serious alarm or distress. If police aren't given training in how to catalogue patterns of behaviour, to think of the cumulative stress put on the victim, and not only to see the one thing in front of them—the flowers that have arrived in the post for the fourth time that week, the messages sent on Twitter under new and elaborate guises, the stalker happening to be parked outside a person's home. It isn't the individual instance that creates alarm; it is the aggregate effect. And if the police officer dealing with your case isn't sympathetic to the nature of what stalking can do, you can feel trapped in this torture.
Finally, Dirprwy Lywydd, our motion calls for women's safety to be a cornerstone in the design of public spaces. We don't have just physical spaces in mind here, but online spaces too. Women or any victims of stalking should not be forced to retreat from public spaces out of fear. Until policing and justice are fully devolved, our powers over improving people's lives in this area will only be partial. We owe it to survivors like those amazing women that I've worked with to do everything we can to end the torment of stalking.

Jenny Rathbone AC: Thank you very much to Plaid for proposing this debate. I thank Joyce for highlighting the fact that only two stalking orders were granted in the last available set of figures in one year, and I think it makes point (c) and point (e) of the motion particularly important, which I'd like to talk about in relation to one of my constituents, who has been persistently stalked over two or three months, and the police have simply failed to take appropriate action. So, she's had her—. The relationship ended, which she thought had been reasonably amicable, but then she's had persistent reporting to the police of her tyres being slashed, and again and again, pouring paint over the car, ripping off the wing mirrors and the windscreen wipers. This happened on five occasions, and all the police did was to tell her to move her car to somewhere else, and to buy a closed-circuit television camera. So, she had to then get together her hard-earned earnings to buy a CCTV camera, and she did then get the evidence on the CCTV camera of him slashing the car yet again. And the police just go round and say, 'Oh, there's not enough evidence here to take this to the Crown Prosecution Service because we won't get the prosecution we need.'
Well, we simply have to change the culture on this, because we should know that it's very different from people who do stupid things in the heat of the moment because we're upset. This is persistent and obsessive behaviour that, if it's done to one person, will be done to another person if that person manages to escape their clutches. We all may have seen the programme about Dennis Nilsen. The police failure to act on the Dennis Nilsen murders meant that many more young people were killed than should have been, and, in the case of stalking, obviously, we're not talking about murder at this stage, but how do you know that somebody who's currently a stalker won't go on to do more extreme things because they're going to get more of a kick out of a more extreme action?
So, this is a really serious matter. It has to be taken to court in order to get the courts to force the individual to address their own adverse childhood experience, probably, but at least to understand that that is just not the way to behave. If somebody doesn't want to have a relationship with you any longer, that is the end of the story. If, by failing to do so, we are not putting a halt to this obsessive behaviour, that person is going to go on to do exactly the same thing to lots of other people—anybody else they get into a relationship with and who doesn't want to be in a relationship with them after they realise what a controlling individual that person is.
Obviously, I'm going to be taking this up with the police, but I think it's really important that we do force our police commissioners to take this matter seriously. Of the one in five people we think this happens to, we have two stalking orders. This will just not do, and I think we really do—. We can't just rely on the new curriculum to ensure that young people understand what respectful relationships look like. We absolutely have to ensure that law enforcement is preventing people who have become a danger to the community from taking things even further.

Siân Gwenllian AC: As we've just heard, stalking is a traumatic experience for those who experience it and survive it. Often, the psychological impact is huge and can lead to depression, anxiety and stress. It's believed that around half of stalking survivors have difficulty with PTSD, stress, anxiety and being overly cautious.
Ultimately, the impact of stalking is to significantly limit the freedom of another individual, leaving them with the feeling that they have to be careful and cautious all of the time. Often, individuals who are stalked have to leave their homes and give up employment, school or college. In addition to this, stalking often happens over a long period of time, so the individual lives in constant anxiety and fear. On average, an individual will be stalked for a period of between six months and two years.
It's no surprise, bearing that in mind, that 94 per cent of stalking victims say that it impacts their mental health. Eighty per cent of stalking survivors experience symptoms consistent with PTSD as a result of being stalked. The pandemic and the stress emerging from it, with reduced access to mental health support, have exacerbated the impact of stalking on the mental health of survivors. We must ensure, therefore, that comprehensive and specialist services are available to stalking survivors and that the appropriate training is also available for police and professionals working in this area.
Stalking, like sexual harassment, impacts women far more than men. One in five women will have experienced stalking, which is a sign of the patriarchal society that we live in, where power lies with one half of the population at the expense of the other. Stalking, sexual harassment and the use of violence against women emerge from an inequality of power, which has been in place structurally and historically.
I believe that women of my generation have kept too quiet on this issue and have been too quiet for too long, although most of us will have suffered as a result of this during our lifetimes. So, it is time for us, as women of all ages, to say 'Enough is enough—no to stalking, no to sexual harassment, no to domestic violence and abuse.' It's time we stood together to draw attention to all inappropriate actions, including all stalking activity, and say 'No more' and do so with a united voice. More than that, we must insist that the agencies, the police and the courts do take stalking seriously. I think that that is the clear message that we're hearing from our national Parliament today.

I call on the Minister for Social Justice, Jane Hutt.

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Can I start by thanking Plaid Cymru for tabling this important motion for debate today? It's very timely that you've brought this for debate in the run-up to National Sexual Abuse and Sexual Violence Awareness Week, an annual event that actually aims to bring people together to both condemn this behaviour and to push for change. I am also pleased to support the Welsh Conservatives' amendments today. I think it strengthens and provides a united message from this Senedd to draw attention to the horrific impact of stalking on victims' lives. But it also does give us an opportunity to highlight the essential work being carried out by the Welsh Government to tackle violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence. Can I say, to all of those who've contributed today, that all the contributions you made will be taken into account? They will help steer the way forward in the strengthening of the action that needs to be taken at all levels of this Government and all Governments who have powers and responsibilities.
Stalking is an abhorrent crime, and it's a prime example of the misuse of power and control that typifies violence against women and girls that's been identified. Stalking is designed to cause fear, alarm and distress to victims. It's persistent, it's intrusive—we've heard a real-life example this afternoon—and not only does it ruin lives, but it has a long-standing impact, as has been said, on mental health and post-traumatic stress disorder. Appallingly, as has been highlighted, the data shows it's increasing, as well.
So, I also want to draw this debate alongside the written statement I issued only last month after the tragic death of Ashling Murphy, which sadly followed on from statements I've made after the murders of Sabina Nessa and Sarah Everard. These women, and many more, are the victims of male violence. Their lives were cut short because they were not safe on our streets: not safe to walk home, not safe to exercise, not safe to simply be women going about their lives. You've heard me say this before, and I am unapologetic about repeating myself, but what I hope you've also heard are the voices of women who are standing up in response to these cruel, tragic, but sadly persistent crimes, and saying, 'This is enough.'
You will have heard the voices of those who attended the vigil for Ashling in Grange Gardens in Cardiff last month, for example. Following the vigil, Sara Robinson summed this up so perfectly in her column in the Western Mail, urging us all to,
'build a world where we don't need these vigils'.
She came, as a young woman who likes to go running, to take part in that vigil, and I think many women and men went in support, to make that point and to make that stand there that night. So, I think debates like this do provide that opportunity to add our voices to theirs, to all agree that it is wrong, it has to stop, and together we have to create that world where vigils are not necessary because of these abhorrent acts.
So, that's why we're strengthening and expanding our violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence strategy to include that focus on violence and harassment against women in the public space as well as in the home, and to ensure that that refreshed strategy is developed alongside key partners—and this is reflected in the motion—including the police, police and crime commissioners, and of course the specialist sector who have been working for years and years, particularly those providing refuge support for domestic abuse and sexual assault referral centres, and of course they provide such incredible, invaluable support to victims and survivors of stalking as well as other forms of VAWDASV.
So, it is joint working—and that message has come through across this Chamber—with agencies such as the police and criminal justice partners, to make legislation work—what has been highlighted is the failure really, in terms of the lack of stalking orders—to hold it to account and see what else we need to do. But we do recognise that at the heart of this revised strategy, we've got to—

Will you take an intervention?

Jane Hutt AC: Indeed.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Sorry, Minister, just a short one. Just to say that you're completely right, obviously, about the joint working; we're only going to tackle this if we do all work together on this and that includes working with UK Government and the police, as you've just outlined, and particularly on social media and how easy it is to stalk someone using social media, be it by being pinned on a map on Snapchator being in a photo that tags where you are, where your position is. It is so easy these days, and so we need to talk to those big companies and work out some sort of strategy that stops it being so easy to track where people are. Thank you.

Jane Hutt AC: Thank you. That's a very helpful additional contribution to the debate today, working obviously in terms of the police tackling domestic violence at every level, including social media online violence, which it often follows and is included in the stalking incidents that we've heard about, and certainly working with the Domestic Abuse Commissioner for England and Wales and our UK Government Ministers on these issues, and the police as well.
But I just want to say that people have mentioned training and education, high-quality appropriate teaching and learning. Relationships and sexuality education will of course play a very important role in this, and that's why the RSE mandatory requirement within the new curriculum, starting in September next year, is so important, because the change has to come with our children and young people to highlight the importance of those safe, equal and healthy relationships and that abusive behaviour is also always wrong.
The revised strategy has to be ambitious. It is going to be achievable. We've extended the consultation to 18 February, so points that have been expressed today will be very important. We've got to hear what the wider people of Wales think. We've got to create a society where women are treated as equals and not subjected to violence and abuse on such an awful scale.
I'd just like to finally say that we have a campaign this month. It's called 'Call Out Only'. It aims to help people identify behaviours associated with street harassment. It acknowledges experiences of women and girls and also recognises where that can cause fear, alarm and distress. But it does call on the public to call out and challenge assumptions about harassment, particularly that harassment against women and girls, often wrongly, has been seen as being harmless and they've got to call it out with their peers, friends and colleagues. So, look out for this 'Call Out Only' campaign. That will be the message.
And as I've said, we do support the Lords amendment to the Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Bill to include misogyny as a hate crime and it's great that we can get that backing here today, isn't it, from the Senedd? So, supporting that amendment.
We are talking specifically about stalking today, but we have to make this clear, that this is part of a spectrum of behaviour that particularly affects women and girls and our response must be comprehensive if it's to be effective, and I want to be held to account on this. We must unite when violence is on our street, we must unite for change and we must unite to allow everyone to live fear free. Diolch yn fawr.

I call on Sioned Williams to reply to the debate.

Sioned Williams MS: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I'd like to thank everyone for their contributions to this afternoon's debate and to the Minister for her robust response, and I agree with her: fundamental to our motion this afternoon is the need to tackle violence against women and girls, which is an unacceptably common experience in our society. Stalking mainly impacts women and girls, with over 80 per cent of those contacting the National Stalking Helpline identifying as female, and the perpetrators being mainly male.
It is clear that stalking is a symptom of a broader social problem and is part of the violence, harassment and abuse that scars the lives of too many women and girls in Wales. We must therefore ensure that the problem is taken into full account in the next VAWDASV strategy.
Minister, I know that the desire and ambition is there, but more must be done; things must improve for the victims of stalking. It's also worth noting the cross-cutting nature of stalking: whilst there is almost always a sexual or sexist element to stalking, many vulnerable and minority groups in our society are more likely to be targets of stalking, for example, as a result of their race of their sexuality. People with illness or disability are also more likely to be stalked, and 2,000 cases of stalking were reported by young people under the age of 18 in 2020 in England and Wales. And as we heard from Heledd Fychan, as in the case of all crimes against women and girls, unfortunately, it's assumed that the number of unreported cases is far higher than these figures.
Although the majority of cases are perpetrated by somebody the victim knows, and that cases can happen within domestic situations, almost a third are carried out by strangers, and therefore trying to ensure that public spaces are safe, are planned or adapted to ensure the safety of women and girls is crucially important. And as we heard in the debate, the digital space also needs to be made safe.
Tackling the prevention of stalking is central to our battle in ensuring an equal Wales. How can we put up with a situation where women suffer in such a way as was described so powerfully by Delyth Jewell and Siân Gwenllian as a result of this crime of stalking? A report by the UN shows that 71 per cent of women in the UK have suffered sexual harassment, and this increases to 86 per cent in the 18 to 24 age group. We are failing our young women, Deputy Presiding Officer. And the Suzy Lamplugh Trust has found that 97 per cent of women have experienced harassment on public transport, but only 14 per cent reported that to the police, and of those, only 6 per cent were offered any support. Only 1 per cent of those prosecuted were found guilty.
Having a culture where people can publicly harass clearly leads stalkers to think that they have free rein to behave in this obsessional and often threatening way, without anyone noticing or without social or legal consequences. The problem in terms of a lack of support and a lack of action in terms of the justice and policing system is clear. Delyth Jewell, Mark Isherwood and Joyce Watson outlined the problems related to the current situation in terms of this, outlining how the response at the moment is ineffective and unacceptable, leaving too many people to experience this terrible crime. And I thank Jenny Rathbone for sharing her constituent's terrible experiences.
Justice and policing, of course, is reserved to Westminster, and although we welcome the amendment in the House of Lords so that the Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Bill will make hate towards women a hate crime in England and Wales, the Conservative Government in Westminster has already suggested that they won't support that amendment, and the Bill is inadequate in terms of tackling the wider socioeconomic problems that contribute to violence against women relating to inequalities on the basis of race, religion, sexuality, class, age, never mind equal access to health services, mental health services, housing and work.
Many contributors this afternoon have outlined steps that could be taken by the Welsh Government to ensure that support for victims is improved and that more is done to prevent stalking in the first instance, and that we need better training for the police and other support services in order to identify, to respond and to prevent this terrible crime that causes so much anguish and too often leads to violence. Mark Isherwood, sending a message is not enough in the face of the attitude of your party's Government in Westminster. There's no doubt that devolving the powers is needed for us to try and respond more effectively to this crime and those that it affects, and, ultimately, actually do away with the circumstances that lead to stalking entirely. Thank you.

The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes. Therefore, I will defer voting on the motion until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.

We have now reached voting time. In accordance with Standing Order 12.18, I will suspend the meeting before proceeding to voting time.

Plenary was suspended at 18:04.
The Senedd reconvened at 18:10, with the Deputy Presiding Officer (David Rees) in the Chair.

9. Voting Time

Welcome back. We now move into the voting time, and we have the first vote on the Welsh Conservative debate on obesity. I call for a vote on the motion, tabled in the name of Darren Millar. If the proposal is not agreed, we will vote on amendments tabled to the motion. Open the vote. Close the vote.

In favour 15, no abstentions, 39 against.

The motion, therefore, is not agreed.

Item 5. Welsh Conservatives debate - Obesity. Motion without amendment: For: 15, Against: 39, Abstain: 0
Motion has been rejectedClick to see vote results

I will now call for a vote on amendment 1, tabled in the name of Lesley Griffiths. Open the vote. Close the vote.

In favour 40, no abstentions, 14 against.

Therefore, the amendment is agreed.

Item 5. Welsh Conservatives debate. Amendment 1, tabled in the name of Lesley Griffiths: For: 40, Against: 14, Abstain: 0
Amendment has been agreedClick to see vote results

I now call for a vote on amendment 2, tabled in the name of Siân Gwenllian. Open the vote. Close the vote.

In favour 40, no abstentions, 14 against.

Therefore, the amendment is agreed.

Item 5. Welsh Conservatives debate. Amendment 2, tabled in the name of Siân Gwenllian: For: 40, Against: 14, Abstain: 0
Amendment has been agreedClick to see vote results

I now call for a vote on the motion as amended.

Motion NDM7903 as amended:
To propose that the Senedd:
1. Expresses its concern that nearly two thirds of adults in Wales are currently overweight or obese.
2. Notes that COVID-19 has a disproportionate effect on those living with obesity, with more than half of critical care admissions having a BMI of over 30.
3. Further notes that weight-management services were paused or adapted as the Welsh NHS treated COVID patients.
4. Acknowledges:
a) the new 2022-24 delivery plan, due to launch on 1 March, which supports the Healthy Weight: Healthy Wales Strategy and aims to prevent and reduce obesity over the next two years.
b) the £5.8m investment into obesity services accompanying the plan, to enable health boards to deliver a revised All Wales Weight Management Pathway and equitable services, including specialist multidisciplinary weight-management services in Wales.
5. Calls on the Welsh Government to prioritise preventative measures to reduce obesity in Wales, such as:
a) investing in resources to promote physical activity in all communities;
b) improving health education;
c) increasing the time allocated to physical education lessons in schools;
d) Investigate the use of taxation tools to encourage a better diet.

Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 40, no abstentions, 14 against. Therefore, the motion as amended is agreed.

Item 5. Welsh Conservatives debate. Motion as amended: For: 40, Against: 14, Abstain: 0
Motion as amended has been agreedClick to see vote results

I move now to the Welsh Conservative debate on adverse childhood experiences. I call for the vote on the motion, tabled in the name of Darren Millar. If the proposal is not agreed, we will then vote on the amendments tabled to the motion. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 39 against. Therefore, the motion is not agreed.

Item 6. Welsh Conservatives debate - Adverse childhood experiences. Motion without amendment: For: 15, Against: 39, Abstain: 0
Motion has been rejectedClick to see vote results

We will now vote on the amendments. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendment 2 will be deselected. I now call for a vote on amendment 1, tabled in the name of Siân Gwenllian. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 40, no abstentions, 14 against. Therefore, amendment 1 is agreed.

Item 6. Welsh Conservatives debate - Amendment 1, tabled in the name of Siân Gwenllian: For: 40, Against: 14, Abstain: 0
Amendment has been agreedClick to see vote results

Amendment 2 deselected.

I will now move on to a vote on amendment 3, tabled in the name of Siân Gwenllian. Open the vote. Twenty-seven in favour, no abstentions, 27 against. Therefore, I use my casting vote to vote against the amendment. Therefore, in favour 27, no abstentions, 28 against. Therefore, the amendment is not agreed.

Item 6. Welsh Conservatives debate. Amendment 3, tabled in the name of Siân Gwenllian: For: 27, Against: 27, Abstain: 0
As there was an equality of votes, the Deputy Presiding Officer used his casting vote in accordance with Standing Order 6.20(ii).
Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

I now call for a vote on amendment 4, tabled in the name of Siân Gwenllian. Open the vote. In favour 54, no abstentions, none against. Therefore, the amendment is agreed.

Item 6. Welsh Conservatives debate. Amendment 4, tabled in the name of Siân Gwenllian: For: 54, Against: 0, Abstain: 0
Amendment has been agreedClick to see vote results

I now call for a vote on the motion as amended.

Motion NDM7905 as amended:
To propose that the Senedd:
1. Recognises the impact that adverse childhood experiences have on health, educational attainment and substance abuse later on in life.
2.Believes that tackling distress during childhood and early intervention must be prioritised in order to give the best start to all children in Wales.
3. Notes the evidence that there has been an increase in adverse childhood experiences as a result of COVID-19.
4. Calls on the Welsh Government to incorporate the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child fully into Welsh law.

Open the vote. In favour 54, no abstentions, none against. Therefore, the motion as amended is agreed.

Item 6. Welsh Conservatives debate - Adverse childhood experiences. Motion as amended: For: 54, Against: 0, Abstain: 0
Motion as amended has been agreedClick to see vote results

I will now move on to the vote on the Plaid Cymru debate. I call for a vote on the motion tabled in the name of Siân Gwenllian. If the proposal is not agreed, we will vote on the amendments tabled to the motion. Open the vote. In favour 40, no abstentions, 14 against. Therefore, the motion is agreed.

Item 8. Plaid Cymru debate - Stalking. Motion without amendment: For: 40, Against: 14, Abstain: 0
Motion has been agreedClick to see vote results

That brings us to the end of the business for the day. Have a safe journey home, and I'll see you all next week.

The meeting ended at 18:18.

QNR

Questions to the Minister for Finance and Local Government

Delyth Jewell: What assessment has the Minister made of the effectiveness of the council tax reduction scheme in addressing the cost-of-living crisis?

Rebecca Evans: Our council tax reduction scheme maintains entitlements to support for vulnerable and low-income households in Wales. The scheme is uprated each year to take account of cost-of-living increases, and targets support where it is needed most.

Huw Irranca-Davies: What assessment has the Minister made of the Welsh Government budget settlement for the local authorities serving the Ogmore constituency?

Rebecca Evans: For 2022-23, Rhondda Cynon Taf will receive an 8.4 per cent increase in its core settlement allocation and Bridgend will receive a 9.2 per cent increase. In addition, these authorities will also receive a share of the £1.1 billion of specific revenue grants..

Joyce Watson: What is the Minister doing to ensure that the council tax system in Wales is fair?

Rebecca Evans: Our programme for government and the co-operation agreement commit to making council tax fairer and more progressive, as we strive for a fairer Wales. I made a statement in plenary on 7 December, outlining our ambitions for this work.

Questions to the Minister for Rural Affairs and North Wales, and Trefnydd

Hefin David: What steps does the Welsh Government take to ensure the effective enforcement of nitrate vulnerable zones?

Lesley Griffiths: Nitrate vulnerable zones no longer exist in Wales. The Water Resources (Control of Agricultural Pollution) (Wales) Regulations 2021 were introduced last year to tackle agricultural pollution and are subject to enforcement by Natural Resources Wales and by the Rural Inspectorate Wales, through cross-compliance.

Paul Davies: Will the Minister make a statement on the Welsh Government’s strategy for rural development?

Lesley Griffiths: Our strategy for rural development is focused on delivering Programme for Government commitments. Through ongoing EU funding until 2023, coupled with replacement domestic funding, we will embed our response to climate change in everything we do; transition to a new system of farm support; and, acknowledge ecologically sustainable food production.